Jay-Z / Nas hip-hop throw down? & other throw-downs?

Just got this link from another mailing list. I'll post the text of the article here, too - it's pretty brief, and Nas actually comes up with some fine rhymes (especially the Sisqo reference - nice!):

Nas ripped Jay-Z and the ROC on Funkmaster Flex's show yesterday. Here are a few lines: "Rip the Freeway shoot thru Memphis with money bags / Stop in Philly order cheese steaks and eat Beans fast/ Bring it back up top remove the fake king of New York / you show off / I count dough off when you sampled my voice / I knew you before you used to rap like the Fu-Schnickens / Nas designed ya blueprint; who you kidding/ Is he H to the izzO M to the izzO/ fa shizzzle you phony rapping version of Sisqo / And as for certain you cloned me / ya wack clothesline i rather Sean John bought me with ya fake azz rhymes & ol 'times that neva took place you liar / Un was ya first courtcase, you have no priors / you master fabricated stories in streets & sound lick / have u surrounded with you and them faggots u down with / while they ride Nas trying boost they careers / they corny as Corn-mega all u hip hop queers."

Anyone w/ more info on this mini-feud? (Damn, I think I've been misspelling "feud" all the live-long day!) And how about a li'l discussion re: various hip-hop feuds from the past - the Roxxanne conflict, LL / Kool Moe, Canibus & Wyclef / LL, ad infinitum, etc? Ethan, you up yet?

-- David Raposa (daver@popshots.org), August 02, 2001

Answers

Damn. He said Fu-Schnickens.

-- Andy (andkel@allmusic.com), August 02, 2001.

That's quite cutting actually. Jay-Z must have thought about the "H to the izzo, M to the izzo" line when he wrote that track. I'd like to see it develop between these two but not in a petty pistol-whipping kind of way. A lot of recent feuds have been a bit disappointing because of the real threat of violence. The 'Bus/LL battle produced a few good rhymes and it was worth it for "Yo, this is Mike Tyson kicking it with the Cannabis [sic] man..."

Oh, and he's right about Roc-A-Wear.

-- Greg (scarth33@btinternet.com), August 02, 2001.

Hey, look, I'm shit at links. Fucking non-editing motherfucker.

-- Greg (scarth33@btinternet.com), August 02, 2001.

Can someone give my wack ass a brief debriefing about the etymological origins of "H to the Izzo / M to the Izzo"? Damn this hip-hop cant...

-- David Raposa (daver@popshots.org), August 02, 2001.

H-O-M-O, derived from Jay-Z's "H to the izzO, V to the izzAy" (H-O-V-A, short for Jay-hova) . If this is what it takes to wake Nas back up, I'm all for it, though I don't see Jay-Z as much of a battle rapper myself. What started this beef though?

-- Kris (branch_rickey@hotmail.com), August 02, 2001.

Jadakiss doesn't like Jay-Z either - at the Crown Heights block party this spring he did a bit of "throw ya hands up" but sang the chorus "fuck that, put ya hands down" -- why does Jay-Z inspire this?

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), August 02, 2001.

I agree with Kris that this could be an excellent opportunity for Nas to regain the status of his old glories. He is the most fallen-off rapper in hip-hop history, possibly, while Jay-Z's last couple of albums were fantastic. Nas is one of the few out there who has what it takes to take on Jay-Z. Let's see him deliver. What's the origin of this particular beef, though?

-- JoB (jobwit@vpro.nl), August 02, 2001.

I think the whole thing started when Memphis Bleek said that Nas fell of after the success of Illmatic, since then a few NY hip hoppers (including the likes of Jadakiss, Nas & Prodigy) have hated on the ROC. I agree he isn't a battle rapper, however, he's proved time and time again that he has the credentials to reckoned as one of the (if not the) greatest lyricists of all

-- Paul (peeyem2k@yahoo.co.uk), August 25, 2001.

They're all just hating because their shit ain't doing as well as Jay- Z's, and that's all there is to that. He's fantastic, his albums are all solid as fuck, he's only made a couple missteps and he's held in wicked high regard, so of course he's going to inspire shit, no matter what the backstory is. But no, he's not much of a battle rapper at all. If Nas wants to bust on him, he better come up with a new single actually as good as the song he's ripping on, quite frankly.

-- Ally (garance80@Yahoo.com), August 25, 2001.

i just think nas, is tryin ta cum back up coz jay-z bein 1 of the most successful in such a short period. i dont think jigga is a thug/battler/hater n probably will just put in a few sly words about nas. but overall its just nas tryin ta start some shit up 4 no reason because people are forgettin his fake ass so he just tryin to get in tha lime light again. n can i also state puff daddy/diddy/fool/asshole/fake-ass-wannabe is just the biggest punk walkin god's green earth n i hope suge will give him a good ass wuppin.

-- the tsui (syetsui@hotmail.com), August 25, 2001.

With Biggie gone, lyrically Nas and Jay-Z r the best out. Jada is a close third. Jigga's on top so 4 Nas to get back into the game he must go at Jigga. Same 4 Kiss. If he wants to be on top he has to go at the roc. But goin at Beans was a mistake. Did yall hear Beanies come back on the Empire Strikes back!!!!!. Oh, If Jay-z doesn't slam Nas on a track, dont worry, Beans WILL!!! The feud sprang because Nas thinks that Jigga has been saying some untrue stuff in his rhymes.Thats all. Holla. - Chris AK

-- C-dot (Nolieshere44@aol.com), August 25, 2001.

i concur, beanie is devastatingly fucking dope. i think he could take on nas solo, and fuck, that's something.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), August 25, 2001.

Yo After 2pac comes BIG then probably Jay-Z as the most sucessful rapper of all time. 2pac Makaveli "the greatest of all time" would take all of the fags out even if they put in a combined effort

-- Ak (adkhan99@hotmail.com), August 26, 2001.

greg told me this story and since he's not here right now i'll quickly recall it;

SCENE: --greg and friend in club that is playing ante up remix--

that chick who fucked pun: '...wish i could bring pun back / bitch run that etc etc'

greg: 'if you could bring back any rapper, who would you?'

friend: 'tupac, certainly...'

greg: '!!!!'

friend: '...so everyone now could see how shit he really was'

THE END

sorry for the poor recollection, but it's like, the best summation of the '2pac' phenomenon i can think of right now. he was a wack wack motherfucker.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), August 27, 2001.

first of all Nas is nice, dont get me wrong, but he cant fuck wit Hova, not now anyway. Jay-z has made so many hits in the last three years its ridiculous and honestly that Queensbridge and "I AM", them shits were WEAK! Nas you can do better, come on dog! OH yeah i dont think Jada wanna fuck wit Beans cause Siegal aint nuthin but the TRUTH! Did yall that shit on EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, OH my God! Kiss tried to come back on this Clue shit but I think Beanie won round 1 of this battle. Beans said ''I'ma sun Kiss like soda'' ''When I see you, you gon' really wish you knocked yourself out! Siegal headphones is on fire this time around!

-- stephon meadors (smead517@wssu.edu), August 27, 2001.

"i'ma son 'kiss like soda". damn.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), August 27, 2001.

They're all just hating because their shit ain't doing as well / as Jay- Z's, and that's all there is to that. / He's fantastic, his albums are all solid as fuck / he's only made a couple missteps / and he's held in wicked high regard, so / of course he's going to inspire shit / no matter what the backstory is.

Slang that shit up and Ally's a rapper.

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

Nah its all about how Hova has been claiming that he is the best and is trying to take over the reins of BIG. And Nas just thought that Hova was trying to ride off BIGS fame. Calling himself the King of New York, which is what BIG called himself. In my opinion J. is right at this time he is the best(AT THIS TIME!), but with Stillmatic coming that may change soon.

One

-- 3000 (ldc3000@bellsouth.net), August 27, 2001.

My rap name is The Hierophant. There will be an Isaac Hayes sample in my first single, the above referenced ode to my mentor, Jay-Hova. It will include a verse questioning why such a great man keeps insisting on picking ridiculous rap names that make even "The Hierophant" look sensible. I mean, honestly, first he was a Pokemon, now he's Jay- Hova. Really now.

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), August 28, 2001.

i think Nas and Jay-z are just doing this whole thing to fatten up their pockets even more....as with Beans... i think nas'll rip him, maybe jada...on a good day..cuz he's solo album wasn't up to par..

-- riri racines (racines.r@buckcosultants.com), August 30, 2001.

Right now everyone is attackin the ROC. Queensbridge, RUFF RYDERS. . . NAS and Jadakiss in particular. Jigga is a fag. . . Bleek and Siegel are the only ones who can pull some sick rhymes. . .But they can't touch Nas. . .Nas is the lyrical poet. . . He never fell off and if you ask me . . . He's the KING OF NY after Big. As for Jadakiss. . . He's not as much as a veteran as NAS but he can tear Roc-A-Fella apart let alone Jay-z. NAS-STILLMATIC shuts Jay-Z down !

-- A. Betito (aidan1023@yahoo.com), August 30, 2001.

Then why is Jay-Z's new album so much better than anything Nas has ever done?

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

J aint a battle rapper and even thoh nas aint been as succesful as Jay,at least he aint slid into some P-diddy money and glamour shit like J done.they cant f*c wit nas coz nas is a poet.

-- wizard (whitneym89@hotmail.com), August 31, 2001.

I think all this stupidness is getting out of hand. Now I've heard that not only jada, nas, and prodigy are hatin on jay, but fat joe joined in as well. All these cats just wanna use some fued to generate sales for themselves. Fat joe is straight wack, I repeat his sh*t "never" is gonna go platnum. and i kind of respect prodigy, but on his album he has a song sayin we goin diamond, all the albums he ever sold in his life could never put him even "close" to diamond. Also if you look at everyone who got beef with him they try to imitate his style. Look at all they albums Jay did the joint with ugk that was off the yalzabub, and all these niggas wanna do a joint with a down south rapper. Jay worked with neptunes before these cats now everyone wanna do it. Let's get one thing straight as far as respect and sales aint none of these dudes even close. the thing between him and prodigy started when prodigy in a magazine interview called him out sayin that when that sh*t was going down with 2pac jay aint say nothing. if you recall Big aint say anything either and most of the hate was directed at him, and he lost his life over that sh*t. I think everybody should just end the beef, if you got beef handle that sh*t with actions if you bout it. last but not least I heard a copy of the blueprint.....................when that sh*t drops..........prodigy,jadakiss,fate joe,nas, and whoever else is gonna be bumpin that sh*t in the small benz/ with small wheels/ small grill / hatin on his success.

-- Jules Winfield (citizenjames@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

THIS WHOLE BEEF STARTED AT 2001 HOT 97 SUMMER JAM...I WAS THERE TO WITNESS IT PERSONALLY...JAY-Z DID A SHORT 1 MINUTE FREESTYLE DISSING MOBB DEEP AND CLAIMED HE HAD PICTURES OF A YOUNG PRODIGY IN A BALLET SUIT...THEN HE PUT THE PICTURES UP ON THE HUGE SCREEN AT SUMMER JAM AND EVERYONE STARTED LAUGHING...JAY Z ALSO CALLED OUT NAS ON THE FREESTLYE...THIS IS THE ORIGIN OF THE BEEF...HOWEVER I HEARD THE JAYZ COMEBACK TRACK ON HIS NEW CD THE BLUEPRINT AND JAYZ KILLS NAS.

-- AJ (DBD2150@AOL.COM), August 31, 2001.

i can't wait for the new album

-- gareth (gareth@norfolkwindmills.com), August 31, 2001.

Yo AJ..... where did you hear the song where Jigga rips Nas? What's it called?

-- KIKO (kiko_kure@hotmail.com), August 31, 2001.

Gareth: the album is fantastic, run to the store and buy it when it comes out. You won't be disappointed, it's the most consistent thing he's done in a long, long time. It's really, truly great, it's possibly the best thing I've heard all year (possibly because I'm allowing hysteria room - I've only listened to it 3 times).

Though I will note that the last album had some 11th hour switchups because of leaks, so if that happens again with this album could change my opinion, as it did on the last album...

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

i have also had the pleasure of hearing Jay-z's new album in which he eats Nas and Prodigy for dinner. i don't have a track listing but it's the second song on the album, i believe it's called the "Originator" but i'm not sure. A lot has been said about this so called "Civil War", if its real or a scam to make money. i know this for sure, Nas and Prodigy have to answer, and not with a freestyle. They better put their brains together and come up with something real clever or they're gonna have to look for new careers. It would be ashamed if a plot to get money ends breaking someone. I just hope no one gets killed. R.I.P. Aaliyah

-- Keino Berry (thekid87@hotmail.com), August 31, 2001.

i still think mobb won the mobb deep/tupac beef, and i swear i'm not just saying that because i like them better.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), August 31, 2001.

I am a Jay Z fan to the graveyard and feel personaly offended by the fact that lesser mcs such as nas, prodigy ,fat joe, and jayo felony even think that there skills are anywhere close enough to fuck with the God

-- Dean Cloud (Deancloud@hotmail.com), September 01, 2001.

i don't think he's really sweating fat joe, dude.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), September 01, 2001.

Look you can only ride the success of an album for so long. Jay-Z's best album were Reasonable Doubt and Vol.1. This is because he took time to wrote lyrics, just listen to the lyrics in those albums compared to his later ones. Now it takes Jadakiss, Nas, and Mobb Deep to bring him back to his roots. Beats are good and nice, but lyrics is what hip hop and rap has always been about. Its what you say and how you say it, not who's beat you rhyme over. I speak of this as a rapper myself. You go to these talent showcases, especially in NJ and Philly, you will get booed off if you don't have tight lyrics. Jay-Z was in danger of selling out, in my opinion, he did what he said in his marcy to hollywood song. He got lazy and put his feet up and rode the fame, so niggas got on his shit. I'm here in Camden and most people are here are tried of Jay-Z and Beanie. I like Jay-Z and I have his new LP already...let's just say he ripped Nas and Prodigy on track 2. I have a question, what do yall think about Genovese's Fuck Y'all?

-- Ryan Groves (slimkid5@hotmail.com), September 01, 2001.

If anyone has heard the bootleg of the "BLUEPRINT" you will agree, JAY HOVA is holdin down hip hop. The 2nd cut, "the Takeover" is aimed squarely at Nas and Prodigy (Mobb Deep) and Jay fore blows like "I don't care if your name is Mobb Deep I hold triggfers to crews/ you little f#$k I got mone stacks bigger than you / when I was pusin weight, back in 88/ You was a ballereena, I got the pictures, I seen ya" He goes on Prodigy for afull 16 bars and then goes at Nas with line like; "So yeah I sampled your voice, you was usin it wrong / you made it a hot line, I made it a hot song / And you aint get a coin, you was getting Fu#ked then / i know who I paid God, Searchlite publishing" Jay is really bringing it to NAS and Mobb Deep. I really can't see Nas or Prodigy seein him. Hova is on another level now, rap just seems too eay for him. Holla!

-- D. BLACK (BIGDAB471@aol.com), September 02, 2001.

damn. still not as hard as nas' first punch though.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), September 02, 2001.

I feel Jay-Z is the best rapper at the moment, going through his albums from Hard Knock life he has non stop hits be it thugged out shit or be it 'commerical', but if Jay-Z was to ever claim he's the best of all time then it is a diferent story because that crown is with Tupac shakur i love Biggie but Tupac for me is in front.

there is so much competition now with more money involved that no one wants to fall off their game and if you don't go platinum it is considered wack, plenty of artists and albums never go platinum but are the shit. Examples LOX we are the streets, Jay-Z first album, Canibus, Big L, list goes on. If the best was based on skill then i would like to have seen a Canibus V Big L battle

I just hope this stays lyrical and not physical

-- Leon Francis A.KA. Vindicater (leon_francis28@hotmail.com), September 03, 2001.

Yall hear that shit on the Blueprint..... The Jigga cut the fuck outta Nas.....its called "Takeover"....this jus proves that Jay-Z is the lyrical master of our time...excluding Eminem

-- AFRO pix (zxcasd@hotmail.com), September 03, 2001.

Jay-Z's the heir to Pac's crown, obviously. "The Blueprint" would be better if "Izzo", "Renegade" and the few tracks that don't fit in with the rest weren't on there. As an album it'd be much better if it was just one sound, because it's a fucking good sound when it's done right ("Heart Of The City", "Song Cry"). Yeah, and the Tip track's shit - Jay-Z doesn't love girls that much.

-- Greg (scarth33@btinternet.com), September 03, 2001.

"There's only so long fake thugs can pretend."

-- Greg (scarth33@btinternet.com), September 03, 2001.

This entire thing is over Jay-Z claiming to be the best, yet at the same time Nas claimes Jay-Z raps about situations that arent real and never happened. Nas is by far a better lyrsist. the only reason people like Jay so much is because he rhymes about money and girls which is what sells right now. There isnt anything wrong about that. Nas-better rhymes JayZ-better business

-- L.J. (liquifx@hotmail.com), September 03, 2001.

Nas no doubt is better than Jay-Z lyrically. Jay just has mad money now and is living off his fame of Reasonable Doubt and Vol. 2. If those albums weren't tight, he'd probably end up like marky mark making wack ass movie a.k.a planet of the apes, three kings and etc... Plus with all this beef Jay got with everybody, I wouldn't be surprised if he got murked(2Pac, Biggie, Big L, etc....)Nas4ever

-- T.K. EEk (eek1982@yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

Lyric Value....Jay-Z: $7.00....Nas: $10.00....Biggie/2Pac: Priceless They both are ok except Nas has the only album between the two who had an album to get five mics from "the source". Plus Jay-Z is too commercial and is trying to do too much by toastng everybody at once. I hope no one gets the death penalty in this feud. Also to Jay-Z, Don't burn your bridges cause no one can save you if they can't cross to help you.

-- Drevon Dingshon (kevinpeytonjr@yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

y'all cats are too hung up on sales dont you know that money and sex sells and jigga being business minded knows that.if you consider lirical prowess aint nobody takin out nas.the late great notorius big himself left the game and started talking about money and hoes.l aint say nas never did that but he just never completely sold out like jigga.nas is a rapper and nobody better than him at his game.if rich kids dont like his shit coz they aint relate to it,that dont mean he is wack.l was feelin nas when he does a song where he personifies a gun,and tells its history.even pac copied that when he does me and my girlfriend.

-- wizard (whitneym89@hotmail.com), September 04, 2001.

Jay-Z was in danger of going completely lazy with his last album, which wasn't even a Jay-Z album despite the tag, it would've been major improved with the complete lack of the Roc-A-Fella crew. But I don't see all you people claiming that Vol 2 and Vol 3 are lazy and/or sell out works. They're tight. Big Pimpin' and Can I Get A... are easily as tight as Ain't No Nigga; I think a lot of people like to romanticise the idea that Jay-Z is all about Reasonable Doubt and went to commercialized shit after that.

His new album is fucking sweet, though. It kicks it, total return to top of the game form. I gotta laugh about "Girls Girls Girls" though - what the fuck is next, "I'm Not Gay (Not That There's ANything Wrong With It)"?

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

1st and foremost about being the best Mc...B.I.G."FOREVER" and i think JAy-Z and PUff had that nigga set up cuz they were the most successful after his death Jay-Z blew up outta no where..after he sucked big dick so much...listen to "i know what girls like f/puff n lil kim"..puff says"mo money "NO" more problems after bigs death...what a coincidence..hmm..and Jay-z spittin on the city is mine is like he was waiting for that shit to happen to Big..anyways if yall listen to music its alot of subliminal shit in it..i cant xplain all my points but if i did yall will agree..but as far as battling..Nas do need to wake up he is the best lyricist next to EMinem those are the best cuz they are very versatile and thats what rap is all about..Jay-Z is pussy cuz he picked nas out the whole bunch cuz nas is pussy too why he didnt respond to DMX,Jada,Jayo felony,charlie baltimore and 50 cent..he too pussy..jay's song the TAKE OVER IS hard but when NAS come back HE COMIN HARD..so JAY FUCKED UP DROPPIN 1st...AND BEANIE BATTLE VERSE WAS LONG BUT NO HARDER THAN JADA's COMBACK ON THAT DISCO BEAT..BEANS WAS SPITTIN NONSENSE ON SOME BARS TRYNA STRETCH THE SONG..AND STYLES ATE JIGGA ASS ON FUNK FLEX..THATS THE NIGGA TO WATCH IN THE GAME ON THE LOW YA HEARD..THE GHOST"

-- Vashon Brown (puslovah@aol.com), September 04, 2001.

First of all i must say that, I have not been feeling Jigga Man since his 1st LP when he was know as Jay-Z. I must say That this album "the Blueprint is a classic! This is better than the his first effort to me. Jay-Z got lyrics and metaphors but all jokes aside Jay-Z can't see Nas. Nas and Jay-Z are on different levels. Jay-Z was on some on commerical shyt. Nas is a Street Poet he spit reality and that's what i like about Nas. I'm glad the ESCOBAR is dead and NAS is back to his illmatic and it was written days. To me to Selling units don't prove that you are a better rapper. Jay-Z can sell 30 millions album for all that i care, I know one thing for sure Jay-Z can't see GhostFace!!! Peace

-- Wise_Born (whitehead_jonathan@hotmail.com), September 04, 2001.

Selling units has nothing to do with anything, Jay-Z just is way less boring than Nas. Probably because he's gay, gay people are fantastic.

(yes, I am just posting shite now, what do you want to do about it? Step up.)

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

Me, I just like the new Jay-Z album besides it sounds like what happens when a man with more money than sense thinks he's god. Entertainment! As pure a cocaine delusion experience as you'll get in these sad times, and it's sickeningly pretty to boot.

-- Ned Raggett (ned@kuci.org), September 04, 2001.

The songs are all gorgeous, he's got the production of the gods, at the very least.

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

Oh, and noteworthy news: The Blueprint has been pushed up yet another week to September 11th (from original date of September 25th) due to bootlegging. Hopefully this doesn't imply last minute switch outs like it did last time...

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

I'm going to make this short if THE GOD M.C. HOLDS HIS OWN SPITTIN WIT THE WHITE GOD M.C. (eminem) ALL YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS GREATNESS WILL BE ANSWERED. BECAUSE NOONE CAN SPIT LINE FOR LINE WIT EMINEM AND GET HIGHLIGHTS.

-- Ha Ha Ha you'll never know (bakedx@hotmail.com), September 04, 2001.

True.

-- Greg (scarth33@btinternet.com), September 04, 2001.

Why can't threads about the Strokes and Atomic Kitten be more like this? Where are we going wrong?

Heard the single today at least - very good stuff. Very very good.

-- Tom (ebros@netcomuk.co.uk), September 04, 2001.

After listening to the BLUEPRINT (again and again!!!) I have decided that it is classic material. Yes Illmatic may be better a better ablum but Jay's new shit is classic ***** (five star) material. Check out "All I need" and "The RUler's Back" for examples. NAS 's biggest problem was getting involved in the playa shit. His last best joints were from "It was written" I know that Nas can spit, but is it tooooo late for him to catch up? Second, does anyone really think tat Jada, Jayo felony and Charlie (i'm only around b/c I fucked Biggie) Baltimore can really handle Jay??? I don;t think so! I think the Nas / Jay Z battle is the best thing for a watered down hip-hop nation. Maybe you younger cats will get the opportunity to get classic material from the top mc's like we did from the KRS v. Juice Crew battles.

ONE

-- D. BLACK (BIGDAB471@aol.com), September 04, 2001.

Why can't threads about the Strokes and Atomic Kitten be more like this?

First the Strokes and Atomic Kitten would have to be as entertaining as Jay-Z, see. ;-)

-- Ned Raggett (ned@kuci.org), September 04, 2001.

Well, if Atomic Kitten would just cooperate and have an old skool throwdown with All Saints, we could get somewhere.

-- Ally (garance80@Yahoo.com), September 04, 2001.

yoyoyo, i wanted to let all you real ass loc'z , they still some of us ridin for pac and da outlawz...screw all dis commercial bull gon on rite now, if pac was here, he'd blow shit up. look man, i from kweenz i aint even liking dis shit , -SAPAVELLI DA DON SAP AL SAPONE!

-- sapavelli tha don (mydib925@aol.com), September 05, 2001.

Man listen R.O.C we running this rap shit Jay hova 6 albums Nas 4 Jay- Z first album 1996 Nas first album 1993

-- Stan Cunningham (suede07203@msn.com), September 05, 2001.

The Upper West Side has destroyed my brain, because I have no idea what those last two posts are on about.

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 05, 2001.

If it's implying that Pac wasn't commercial and Jay Z's better than Nas because he's made more albums and shit then I don't understand it either.

-- Greg (scarth33@btinternet.com), September 05, 2001.

Okay, so we got the same thing from it, I'm not just being a moron.

PS The Takeover is some fucking great shit, I can't stop listening to it.

-- Ally (garance80@Yahoo.com), September 05, 2001.

This is for that idiot that said that 2Pac is the greatest of all time. How many records did Pac sell off his first two albums? How many did Biggie sell? Thank you! Don't compare all of 2Pac's albums to Biggie's 2.

-- Smokey (smokn29@nyc.com), September 05, 2001.

I don't know exactly why Nas is dissin Hov but I don't think he's hatin like dem other cats(Prodigy & Jay-O Felony). Dem cats ain't got shit, won't be shit. Nas does have something to prove. His first album is considered a classic by almost everyone but it didn't even go gold. After that he's been trying to flip his style to sell more records. What happened though, these fools were crazy tight. Jig was always shouting out Nas in his songs. "Niggas argue all day about who's the best MC, Biggie, Jay-Z or Nas" , "Tits firm like Nas, Nature, Fox and A-Z". It's crazy. "Some how the rap game reminds me of the crack game". Jay-Z does look like a prophet. He said in vol. 1 "Don't worry about Brooklyn I'll continue your fame...you held it down long enough, let me take those reigns". He's held it down like no other since Biggie left. In vol.2 he said "I'll sell mo records than Will Smith" Will was second to Hov. Everyone's talking about NYC best but no mention of DMX.

-- Smokey (Smokn29@nyc.com), September 05, 2001.

Does DMX ride a BMX?

-- DG (rgreenfield@btinternet.com), September 05, 2001.

Yo Did YALL HEAR THE BLUEPRINT???? JAY HELD IT DOWN AND IS STILL THE HOTTEST NIGGA IN THE STREETS HE PROVED HIMSELF ONCE AGAIN. SO NIGGAS NEED TO STOP HATIN(jada,prodigy)CAUSE TO ME KISSTHAGAMEGOOD-BYE WAS A DISSAPOINTMENT AND DIDNT EVEN GO GOLD AND HE PLAYED NAS THE FUCK OUT ON TRACK #2(YOU WENT FORM TOP TEN TO NOT BEING METIONED AT ALL TILL YOR BODY GAURDS VERSE ON OOCHI WALLIE WAS BETTER THAN YOURS MATER OF FACT YOU HAD THE WORSE VERSE ON THE WHOLE FUCKIN SONG!!!)

-- (djtrigga@djcentral.com), September 05, 2001.

First of all to say Prodigy ain't got shit, Mobb Deep's Infamous album is considered just as classic as Illmatic. Check Shook Ones Pt 2. Anyway, Roc-A-Fella will get fucked six ways from sunday in a battle against QB. Period. Prodigy will respond, like with any conflict, the one you hear most recent seems to be the best. Just wait. And also no producer Jay-z gets is half as sick as Havoc.

-- jesse smith (timaeus5@aol.com), September 05, 2001.

Can I just say I'm down with the fact, learnt today, that Jay-Z's pushed up release now competes directly with Mariah's new "opus", Glitter? TAKE THE BITCH DOWN. I'll buy two copies to fuck with that girl.

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 05, 2001.

Anyone out there who believes that Nas' verse to Jay on Stillmatic is close to Jay's verse (or song) to him is crazy. All questions about who the God MC is should be answered from song number 2 on The Blueprint. There is no comparison. No one has the total package like Jay. None!! How can anyone speak Nas' name in the same sentence. Like Jay said...He has a "One-hot-album-every-ten-year- average"! Career over...Lights out N___as

-- MainmanSean (seanbasket@aol.com), September 05, 2001.

The Blue Print Is SICK!! Nas has to go back to the drawing Board..HOVA will have a 5 mic classic this time around.

-- Will C (jigga_6@hotmail.com), September 06, 2001.

Okay, I reviewed the album, but I'm too lazy to summarize or repost so just go here if you want to discuss what I thought of it with me.

-- Ally (garance80@Yahoo.com), September 06, 2001.

yo was up if you ask me nas is just pissed of seeing jay-z fake ass face on tv. my best advice for jay-z is to not answer back to nas diss because if he does nas will destory him. nas lyrics are too powerfull to compare with jay-z. my best advice for jay-z is before he decide to answer back listen to nas joinz like e.g. the message, the firm bizz, if i ruled the work, nas is like to let him know that he is going against a very hard mutherfucken hore rapper

-- MedEsco (mehiden@hotmail.com), September 07, 2001.

Who cares if Pac's first 2 albums didn't sell as much as Big. Pac and Big were not gods because of their albums. They were gods because of their charisma. Pac was a revolutionary who has sold more records(33 mil) than any rapper ever (Mc Hammer/Will Smith are second with 20 mill and then big with 16 mill). Type in Tupac in any web browser and see how many fuckin hits you get. Then type in big and see how many you get. No contest muhphukas. Pac is a phenomenon.

-- Don Juan (redd62@yahoo.com), September 07, 2001.

Ohmigoodness, did'ja hear Jay-Z's NEWEST comeback record to Nas? No, not "The Takeover" on The Blueprint, but he's got a new one that I'm banking will shut "Nasty" Nas up good; it's called "I Will Not Lose", and here's a sample:

"...niggas wanna play Hov' for pussy / I'll grab you by your fuckin' chipped tooth and send you home, you wussy / Talkin' bout, "Nas Is Like", I'll rob you of your life / You better just drop the mic / Or I'll murder you with this pocketknife / Hov' stay gutter / Hoes won't mutter / When I melt Escobitch like homemade butter..."

If ya'll ain't heard it by NOW, ya' better cop the MP3...Nas is aiight, but Hov' is the GOD! Undoubtedly, he is nice like librarians at closing time. Holla!

-- Danny "Puffy" Swain (puffswain@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

"I'll murder you with this pocketknife" sounds like something I've said to someone before.

-- Ally (garance80@Yahoo.com), September 07, 2001.

I've written better rhymes than that.

-- Greg (scarth33@btinternet.com), September 07, 2001.

But wait, there's more! Peep the second verse:

"...feminist women love Jigga Man / Chikka-chikka look at Nas Esco, I'm sick of him / Look at him / Walkin' around with fake answers and all / I'll throw him cancerous barbs / Yeah, but he's so wack though / I got a pitbull that eats sheep and spits wool / And chews on Nasty Nas's flesh until its stomach gets full / This nigga skipped school / Barely went to class, thinkin' shit's cool Hid a loaded pistol under this retarded kid's stool..."

I'm tellin' you, Hov' is gutter like a bowling alley. Peep the REAL Blueprint LP, due next week! Holla!

-- Danny "Puffy" Swain (puffswain@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

Why don't you just admit that you're Ja Rule?

-- ALly (garance80@Yahoo.com), September 07, 2001.

Admit that I'm Ja Rule? I don't get it, ALly.

-- Danny "Puffy" Swain (puffswain@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

Holla, Puffy.

-- Ally (garance80@Yahoo.com), September 07, 2001.

what sond did jay sample nas on, i cant remember. the blueprint is thowed as hell. he got in nas's ass. i think people dis nas more than he deserves. nastradamus was garbage, but I am was not bad. what do yall think about jada, cuz it seems like he gets no props. i think his shit was hot. what s this i hear about jay z being a faggot, is that true, cuz im hearin it a lot. oh yeah, one more thing, listen for that new nelly song"Number 1" that is the worst rap shit ever played on the radio, finally his fame is up.

-- houstons finest (simcol1111@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

Jigga Man sampled Nas's "The World Is Yours" for his own "Dead Presidents II". You heard him on "The Takeover": "...you made it a hot line / I made it a hot song..." Die-hard Jay-Z fan in the house! And remember, peep the new Jigga song "I Will Not Lose" as I posted earlier. Holla!

-- Danny "Puffy" Swain (puffswain@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

Jay-z is not gay, thats just a rumor that people spread.

-- (dfsf@dffg.c0m), September 07, 2001.

i think this is a good beef, i jus hope they keepit on wax... stillmatic was hard and so was the takeover, but neither nas or H.O.V.A. can see Pac... Pac was and is the king of the dis song (see hit em up, bomb first, and against all odds).

-- Kev Davis (kev_davis_jr@yahoo.com), September 09, 2001.

canibus ripped ll witht the 2001 freestyle

-- Brian Erwin (bugsy_33_2002@blackplanet.com), September 09, 2001.

With all this beef going on there should be nobody hungry foreal,but any way I think the only way to solve who's the best MC is to get them all on stage or ring with one mic and let it all out. Keep it gangsta with yo skills not the steel cause there's to many Mc's being rememberd. There all the best to me on different levels,but don't forget my mans and nem X !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Rell_Flava (Rell_Flava@yahoo.com), September 10, 2001.

Yo lets get shit straight...Nas fell off after Illmatic..hes not number two..hes not number three..shit he ain't even in the top twenty...Jay got mad commercial after reasonable doubt but he was still doin the businessman thing by puttin on the club-bangers..but i personally had no respect for him as a rapper...he was still definitely the strongest lyricist in the game..i just wasnt feelin what he was saying..however...all u rap gods gotta cop the blueprint...that shit is reasonable doubt status...aint nobody touchin him right now...regardless of the haters trying to holla..Nas is wack...that rhyme he spit was hot tho...maybe if he could consistently spit some hot shit he wouldnt have fallen off so damn hard...btw...Beanie killed Jada but Jada is definitely the tighter rapper overall...Holla!...ONE

-- Chris LastName (spnshpapi204@yahoo.com), September 10, 2001.

that retarded kid's stool joke on nas' 'sneak an uzi on the island' line is hype.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), September 10, 2001.

yo check i'm from cali, and i just heard about the jay z and nas beef when i copped the blue print. . .but i think over all nas is way iller then Jay Z, he might of fell off but he will be topping the charts agian. yeah, but nas battle flow was way iller then jayz diss.

-- Edwin JOHNSON (hnp_the_klik@hotmail.com), September 10, 2001.

Nas sucks, the only rappers holding it down in QB is Prodigy,Kool G Rap, Cormega and Tragedy khadafi. Nas diss sucked. Jay-Z killed him on the takeover.

-- The Don (sdfds@msn.com), September 10, 2001.

The way i see it....Lyrically there is no way in this lifetime Hova can ever match up to nas! Although jay-z has thrown out albums consecutivly the feud is rediculos. If you asked me the only album im feeling from jay-z and nas is both there first ones. Jay-z is commercial while nas you have to shit back and think about where hes coming from. All in all, this feud will play out very dirty. Cause niggahs both in queens and brooklyn dont give a fuck. Real niggahs do real things!

One

-- The Realness (Yougotit@aol.com), September 11, 2001.

THERE ARE NOTHING WRONG WIT NAS & JIGGA FIRST AND FOREMOST I LIKE TO SAY TO NAS HES A TRUE HATER SO AS JADA,PRODIGYAND SO AS FAT JOE BUT WHAT IT IS IM A TRUE JAY-Z FAN, THEY PROBALY SAYIN SHIT BOUT JAY-Z CAUSE THEY GOT NUTTIN GOOD ALL THEY SHIT IZ WEAK 4REAL AND JIGGA JUST RELEASE HIS NEW ALBUM CALLED THE BLUEPRINT 4SHO AND IF U HEARD DA ALBUM OH GOT DA ALBUM LISTEN TO TRACK 2 THATS DA SHIT WHEN HE DISSED MOBBDEEP AND NAS,HE SMASH DAT SINGLE ITS CALLED TAKEOVER HE KILLED THEY SHIT BUT ITS NOT DAT NAS HAVENT COME OUT WITH NUTTIN GOOD YET DATS HOT WELL DATS Y THEY STRIKING ON THE ROC CAUSE THEY ON TOP AND THEY AINT GOT NUTTIN HOT AFTER BIG BEEN A WAY JIGGA HAS BEEN DA BESTU KNOW .

-- JERRY JEAN (NYMIKNYC@NETSCAPE.NET), September 11, 2001.

Jay-Z and Nas are two good rappers. I think their is nothing wrong in saying what you want about another person as long as yall don't through hands. People buy and listen to there music everyday and there's nothing wrong with what they are doing. Both of them getting there money and they never stop doing what they love to do. This is a way of expressing themselves to the rap game.

Holla

-- Jay-Lo (Cherrydelight@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.

DAMN MOTHERFUCKERS! Nigga Are Talking shit about this niggaz when they all are tight. Jay- z Ran The rap Game Like He Say. Nas is mad because he know he should have been the man that had thegme on lock beause his the best pure rapper, but Hova is a better at hustling getting with he wants. jadakiss is my nigga but he not that type that could be King of the rap game, he's more of a knight, as for Beanie Sigel his tight i like him but he can't be Compare To Jay, Kiss or Nas He not on there Level. their in College And Beanie and memphis, Sp, Sheek and the rest of the brave Heart are in High school. Prodigy Then Lost has Fucking Mind Taking Shots at jay, what the fuck was he thinking. Dmx is the realest down to earth nigga but not really lyrically deep. Really the only to Rapper the qualify as being the King is Jay and Nas, but Jay Out Standing record of deeping dope got him the crown, Nas just Trying To Restore his name and one day after doping 2 dope album that better than Jay-z(which i may add will be hard as heel to do) can steal the crown as King of the rap game. I HAD TO EDUCATE YOU FUCKERS!

-- TAZMA (Super-man@blackplanet.com), September 13, 2001.

nas is going to eat jay z for breakfast ya heard

-- big law (leprofit@aol.com), September 13, 2001.

Nas sucks big ass dick!! He was never hot, and never will be. He can't rap for shit, he aint' touchin jay-z so fuck that. But that does'nt matter cuz the best fucking rapper ever is still and always be Tupac Shakur mothafuckas

-- Michael (quadpac33@aol.com), September 13, 2001.

Some people just take this "commercial" thing too far. Regardless of who it is, people rap about life. Illmatic and Reasonable Doubt were some untouchable ass albums we can all agree on that one. However, it was their first albums so they rap about their lives (i.e. drugs and thuggin out). Not to much mentioning of iced out chains and expensive cars because they couldn't afford all that. They can now, so they've earned the right to rap about all that because it's a trophy to them. Bottom line of it all, some people are gonna love what you do, some people are gonna hate what you do. Just make sure that there are more people that love what you do. -Champagne James

-- Champagne James (champagne@foreverenterprise.com), September 14, 2001.

Jay-Z ripped Nas and Mobb Deep on his new CD!!! That nigga is everywhere and got the game on lock without a doubt!!!

-- Jeremiah Erby (jeremiaherby@hotmail.com), September 14, 2001.

after reading some of that shit i hope yall start killing yourselves. oh no this is the internet.

-- Suave Wobb (wobsis@hotmail.com), September 14, 2001.

JIGGA HURTS NAS ON HIS NW C.D, EVEN THOUGH IM A HUGE FAN OF BOTH JIGGA AND NAS, NAS'S CREWS ARE GONNA BE TOO MUCH 4 HIM 2 TAKE ON.I'VE GOT EVERYTHING NAS AND JIGGA HAVE DONE AND THEY BOTH ILL RAPPERS, NAS AN ILL POET 2.BUT JIGGA SHOULD NOT TRY 2 MESS COZ R.O.C AINT GOT NOTHING ON QUEENSBRIDGE-BOTH OF THEM R THE BEST THE EaStSiDe HAVE GOT. BENIE,MEMPHIS ARE ILL 2 BUT QUEENSBIDGE ARE TOO MANY AND ALL HEAVY M.C'S.SOME1'S GONNA GET HURT-U HEARD FROM ME FIRST.ONE

-- EaSt SiDe LoVeR (osei-tutu@btinternet.com), September 15, 2001.

jay WAS cool but his last 2 albums just didnt cut apart from big pimpin he didnt have those clasic tracks u expexct from him. yeah he is a grat rapper but he seems 2 be lackin nowdays nas is de man he is 1 of de tightest rappers of all time if n e 1 could do in jay its him jay aint a batlling rapper and nas is da man.

-- andy hixon (hixon00@hotmail.com), September 15, 2001.

I think Nas and Jay-z are a couple of the best rappers right now. Although you can't compare the two. Jay-z is nothing more than a commercial pretty boy that says things to sell records. I like his stuff but it is not on the same level as Nas. Nas has ideas and opinions and can tell a story in a rap. Nas's combination of Illmatic, I am, and It was Written is better than anything Jay-z will ever put out.

-- Ray Vazini (ya41@aol.com), September 15, 2001.

Nas and Jay Z are probably two of the most talented MC out right now. But their stlyles are different. Jay Z has more of a laid back, witty style and Nas has a more inituitve, thought provoking deep rap. If you HAD to compare the to NAS would definfently eat Jay Z's ass. Nas's lyrics on H to the homo were so tight cause he ate damn near everybody in Jay Z's camp in about 8 bars. Jay'z's the takeover was tight in its own right, but he has ALOT of filler in there, and ther are few deep rhymes in the song. So basically, when Stillmatic comes out, It will be No question as to who is the king of NY. But even though these niggas is feudin about being the best, the best battle rapper of all time is definently Tupac. Hit em' up has to be the most damaging battle rhyme ever produced. Tupac dissed an entire COAST in that song, with each line lyrically murdering one MC after another. And damn near nobody responded to that song. The only rapper that actually responded hard to hit em' up was none other than Chino XL. All these other rapper bithchin about being the best like Jay Z, Prodigy, Nas, etc. wern't sayin nuthin. So, If you haven't heard Chino XL's freestyle dissing tupac, I suggest you download it. So in summarry NAS is better than Jay Z, Chino XL is the most underrrated MC, and Tupac is the best of all time. One.

-- Barry Rukes (biruke@hotmail.com), September 16, 2001.

I'm assuming that after our terrible world trade incident Nas and Jay will both realize that their miniscule beef is nothing compared to the problems NYC is facing today. Even over the "American" bond they also share a "New York" bond as well. What you think?

-- Kuizzy fa Shizzy (comm_uh@hotmail.com), September 16, 2001.

Listen all dick heads. Ya Niggas is talkin mad shit not even thinking. Fuck Nas fuck Jay-z the nigga ya should be talking about is tha Fabolous. Fabolous album is 100 times better than the blueprints HoLLa Back at t

-- Michael (FaBoLoUs1133@aol.com), September 17, 2001.

How come no one raised an eyebrow when Nas spit "...these niggaz is wrong using your name in vain and they claim to be New York's king" You know he was talking about Jay-z and this was awhile back on the I am album. I like Jigga's lyrics but why's he always mentioning Big and Pac in all of his songs now. He didn't even know Pac. As a matter of fact I think he tried spittin some sneaky shit about Pac in I love the dough.

-- Smokey (smoknla29@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

Ya Niggaz is lame because Jigga and Nas Aint fucking wit FaBoLoUs

-- FaBoLoUs (fabolous1133@aol.com), September 17, 2001.

that fabulous cd is garbage. jada wrecks.

-- playbpoy (suckmypiece@yamamasahoe.com), September 17, 2001.

Jigga-blueprint- 41/2 mics in my opinion. i was a die hard fan of nas when illmatic came out, but he blatantly turned his back on his fans for sales. once you turn your back on your fans(especially in hip hop), you almost never get them back. he went for commercial appeal. he got the sales he wanted on his next album. by his 3rd(wack), his true hip hop fans were gone, and he became yesterdays news to everyone else. even when he put out a few bangers, niggas was hesitant to ride with him again. i'd about given up on him until he put out 'stillmatic'. but it will take more than that to make me buy another cd of his. i sincerely hope he takes it back to the streets though. and i don't mean the violence, i mean the cause. as for jay, many people won't agree but i think 'reasonable doubt' was just as commercial as most of his shit. tight-no doubt, but i think it was fairly consistant with the rest of his stuff. 'blueprint' is a definate standout though. only 41/2 because he's still a bit commercial for me. right now, jigga's king till someone proves otherwise. word for eternity---CONSISTENCE!!!!!

-- D. Was (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

oh my ...

-- Tadeusz Suchodolski (llamasfur@aol.com), September 18, 2001.

talk about jay z goin pop what the fuck has nas done? Beenie will eat nas, already ate jada. Don't fuck with the roc period. Jay Z has been around for a long ass time believe no one wants to battle Jay. Bleek is probably the weakest out of the roc and he's solid. Beans and Jay are the kings of the game right now. I honestly think that beans would hold his own or eat eminem in a cipher. The rocs hot no one can fuck wit their sales or there street appeal.

-- zach gannis (phonetics69@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

Nas is crazy out his mind. It started with "Hate me Now" and it just went south quick for him. His "FIRM" project with AZ and Foxy was a complete failure. His last two albums don't come close to his first two with hits such like "New York State of Mind" and "I Gave you Power" or even "Black Girl Lost." Jay-Z on the other hand is the illest. He's proven he can master any style. Look at his fukken resume: collabos with Dr. Dre to Mariah to Juvenile to UGK to Sauce Money to Snoop Dogg to JDupri to Too $hort. From "Ain't No Nigga" to "Sunshine" to "City is Mine" to "Can I Get a ..." to "Girl's Best Friend"to "S.Carter" to "Big Pimpin" to "HOVA." He can flow with anyone and can change styles with the best. He's earned the moniker "King of New York" by his works and his commercial sales. Are you kidding me? The beef can be traced back to even before Foxy Brown hooked up with Nas to form the FIRM, after Jay-Z basically made her and wrote half her rhymes. I think it's been long-standing that the two don't get along. Check "Life and Times of Sean Carter ... vol. 3" and listen to the song "Come and Get Me." The feud has been subtle until recently. "H to the izzo, M to the izzo" is clever. But, Nas has fallen a long time ago.

One

-- Avenel Solano (deo_sol14@excite.com), September 18, 2001.

I respect y'all's opinion, but I disagree to the utmost. First of all, Pac is the Best. He gone and his new stuff is still tight. If u put out a brand new Easy-E song in 2001, it might be ok, but it won't be hot. Same for Biggie. But if you put out a Pac song, that we never heard, wit up to date beats, it'll be tight. Look at "Til the end of Time." He probably wrote that in 96' but it is still an "on the top song." Sure it is some nonsense songs on that last CD that he may not even have ever released, but there are also some "Plait" type songs too,(All out) that no rapper, past or present can match. Second, Pac perfected the art of rap beef. Come on, he called out everybody from, Bigge, Nas, Jigga, everybody. And not one of them responded. Yes, even your boy Jay. Now Hov gives a shout out to Pac. I respect that, but just admit that Pac had them people scared to respond. I know Puff doesn't go for that so BIG may have had no choice, but look at Nas and Jay, ain't say a word. Mobb came back at him and I'm not really a fan of them but I respect them because they took on the Jordan of Rap. Next, I need to note that the rappers with the best skills right now are, Jada, Jigga and Nas. There stuff makes you think. They are not like other rappers. Look at all the peeps who are out now that Pac is gone, str8 biting his style (Master P, Cash Money). But Jada, Jigga and Nas don't copy. And they don't spit nonsense like the rest (Luda and Nelly to name a few) Yeah they all may have put some stuff out that was a little less than "hardcore" But you gotta do that to sale. If every track is street, than you will get hardly no air play and/or no sales. This ain't the block where you gotta keep it 1 way or else you are a sell out. No, you gotta put out with the people gonna buy. So the fact that the 3 rappers at the top (in my opinion) are selling and still keeping it tight, without nonsense songs, (Shake it fast) because of that, you gotta give them their dues. Lastly, if you think Beans is better than J-A-D-A, you are trippin'. I just heard Jada's comeback... Jada won if you ask me, but Beans did better than I would have guessed. But how does Beanie figure that ROC has the belt. If you pull Jay-Z out, then ROC is a bunch of "okay" rappers. Beanie ain't put out a thing that is classic, and I doubt if he can. The Jay vs. Nas is too close to call. I would say Jay won because he says more, but his is a response. I think it is easier to respond to a diss than to come out first. Whoever does #2 got the upperhand. So it is too close for me to call, but please don't act like Nas got str8 up punked, cause that ain't true. Both of these people laid it down. Okay, that's it. R.I.P to those in the plane incident in D.C., PA, NY and to Aaliyah. Holla.--------------Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

lyrically, most are you are dead wrong. on that tip it goes to cats like mos def, ras kass, talib kweli, eminem, and pharoah monch to name a few. there are many other artists "lyrically" that bring some shit that will totally blow your mind. of course you probably won't hear most of them because they lack that commercial appeal. jigga is one who has come closest to mastering both worlds. in my opinion, big's 'i'm ready to die' reached the peak. he had everything you could ask for in a cd. + he was a heavyweight lyrically. i love pac to death, but i look at him as more an icon, a personality (on par with ali for boxing) in the rap game. he had a bigger impact than the rest. but i don't think any of his cds were absolute standouts compared to other top cds. by the way, jigga held his own in renegade, but eminem.....damn!

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

i agree, who ever has the response diss will have the advantage on the person who put out the 1rst diss. I think neither Nas or Jigga are the kings of New York, but Jigga is the hottest rapper out now. I never thought that the ROC was holding it down. If you ask me, the Rawkus record label is the hottest label out right now. I think that Method Man's next album might knock out Jay-Z and Nas.

P.S. watchout for that Nigga named Royce da 5'9"

-- Darth Marl (34j@dfd.com), September 18, 2001.

Isn't there anyone who thinks that Tupac is a talentless fuck? Him and his bloody loungecore piano samples and pathetic attempts at making himself some sort of intellectual icon. He fits every stereotype about rap, the constant songs about loving his mama, and besides all this his Gangster posturing doesn't convince me at all. Also his voice is shit and he's pretentious moreso than most rappers and in a more irritating way.

-- Ronan (fitzger@statoil.com), September 18, 2001.

2Pac was in Digital Underground, which gives him a free cred card.

Beyond that, one reason he fits the stereotypes for gangsta rap so well is because he was one of the people used to cement them.

-- Dan Perry (djperry@post.harvard.edu), September 18, 2001.

Shit, forgot to add that Pac's gangsta posturing was anything but posturing; read some more about his life and you'll see an intelligent person forced into a bad situation who was well on his way out of it when he was killed.

-- Dan Perry (djperry@post.harvard.edu), September 18, 2001.

I don't think either rapper is better. They are both on top. Like Jay said his self before, the greatest rappers are Biggie, Jay- Z, and Nas. They just need to drop it, and be cool again. Cause to me, it seems stupid to keep on rapping about killing another rapper, or doing harm to another rapper when you know your not going to do it. I feel that if they really want to be called one of the greatest rappers, they need to be the bigger people, and drop it. Maybe some rappers kept on going, but they could just drop it, and be cool. To me neither one of them are weak. They are both on top. All this beef ain't needed. I think if you need to prove anything to anyone. If someone questions you being the best, don't start a whole flow about killing them, just keep on doing your thing. Doing that will shut people up. To me no other rappers will touch Nas or Jay, thats the prediction, Holla back.

-- Yatta (hotgirlhb@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

All you who think that NAS has fallen off, fuck that! ya his nastradamus album was disapointing, but lyrically he's best, you all know he can spit a hot verse. His still got it, and he's going to use what he's been saving, to shit on GAY-Z. And what the fuck was that song Gay-Z did at the end with his hidden track with "girls, girls" remix. What kind of fucking beat is that. Did he sample that from Sesame Street!? I guess he truly is Gay....Z Remember album sales don't mean shit. Theres a difference between HIP-HOP and HIP-POP and NAS is HIP-HOP.

-- Larry Bird (LarryBird@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

gotta give it to donwas a few posts up ... mos def is a classic, lyrical visionary. and the others you mention are good too. but, this a debate about NAS and Jay-Z ... and the KING OF NEW YORK title. all this 2pac stuff is buggin me out. 2pac was great ... one of the greatest ... but he admittingly knew he wasn't the best rapper ever. it was his charisma and thug style what people loved. AND, from most accounts, JAY-Z WAS the first to call out Nas. so, he wasn't just responding. yes, jay-z shouts out 2pac with "the flows of all flows, not a demon, but a rose in the cement" and other lines. he also shouts out eminem and snoop dogg "until snoop crushed the building ... i'm trying to restore the feeling." JAY-Z respects and loves hip hop. remember the joint with AMIL and Jaz-o "Nigga what"? could Nas rhyme that fast? has Nas put out anything that can compare to "The World is Mine" or "Black Girl Lost" on his last two albums? his last two albums, he tried to commercialize and went for the "bling-bling" steez. jay-z still bumps hard core along with the booty dance mixes. his gansta stuff makes it into the mainstream "who ya with" and "watch me" with dr. dre. Nas will be forever remembered for "ILLMATIC" ... but Jay-Z really put hip hop into everyone's living room, everyone's car stereo, and still had thugz lovin it.

One.

-- A.Sol (deo_sol14@excite.com), September 18, 2001.

ALL YALL MUTHAFUCKAS TALKIN ABOUT HOW GREAT JAY Z IS. THIS NICCA IS WEAK AS WATER. TELL ME HOW A NICCA WAS TRYING (I DID SAY TRY) TO BEEF WITH THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME(PAC)WHEN HE WAS LIVIN, AND AFTER MY NICCA DIED HE IS GIVIN HIM MAD PROPS LIVE (ON MTV MUSIC AWARDS AND SEVERAL TIMES IN HIS SONGS, BYTCH AZZ NIGGA). IN CASE HOVA HASN'T HEARD "...FUCK JAY Z AND I SMOKE DAILY..."(UNTIL THE END OF TIME) ENOUGH SAID! AS FOR THE BLUE PRINT THAT SHYT IS O.K. IT HAS ONLY LIKE 3 TRACKS. NOW ABOUT NAS THAT NICCA IS GAY TOO. HE NEEDS TO COME OUT WITH SOMETHING, SHYT WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME HE GOT AN INCOME OVER SIX FIGURES..."THE MOVIE BELLY" "...WHAT ABOUT THIS NIGGA NAS HE COPIED MY STYLE FIVE SHOTS COULDN'T DROP ME I TOOK IT AND SMILED..."(HIT EM UP) ENOUGH SAID! PRODIGY HE IS O.K., THAT NICCA TRIES TO KEEP IT GANGSTA. NOW LIKE SUGE K. SAID ALL OF THESE EAST COAST NIGGAZ IS FAKE AND HE ONLY HAS RESPECT FOR WHO DOUBLE RR MEANING JADA KISS N THEM, "...THAT'S WHY PAC AINT REALLY LIKE MOST OF YALL COWARDS!!"(KISS THE GAME GOODBYE) PERSONALLY I THINK JADA'S ALBUM IS NICER THAN HOVA'S, SHYT ALL OF HIS TRACKS ARE GRIMMY. ONE LAST QUOTE FROM THE GREATEST "I AM A bad boy KILLA jay z DIE TOO LOOKIN OUT FO mobb deep NIGGA WHEN I FIND YOU...." OH YEAH AND THE SOURCE IS WACK TOO GIVING NAS AND BIGGIE FIVE MICS WHEN THEY KNOW DAMN WELL THAT THE BEST ALBUM TO EVER DROP WAS U ALREADY KNOW ALL EYEZ ON ME. DON'T GET IT TWISTED.

-- The Best (Nchekwube@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

to me in my opinion personally i think the best LYRICIST has to be master p cuz he keep it gutter and he keep it fa sho dirty. 2nd lyricist is nelly, with ludacris coming in at a close 3rd, fa shoe ya undagig ei whatt it do holla at ya boy. tell ya mama let me smash in her ear, ei fa sho holla at me.

-- matt (matt78777@aol.com), September 18, 2001.

I don't want anyone to think for a second that i feel nas has lost his ability to speak poetry. i know that he has it in him. but i, like many other hip hop fans that love the "art", feel he hasn't grown from illmatic. you just don't come gutter your first time out then leave it all behind for the glamour. at that time, we already had 40,000 mc's rappin about italian clothes, champagne, ice, and 4.6's. we didn't need nor want that from him. he was the one that was supposed to put the east coast back on the map. take hip hop back to the streets(once again, not for the violence-for the cause). now i understand that a nigga gotta eat, but that's what makes an artist truly an artist. one who doesn't compromise for the almighty dollar. don't get me wrong, if that's what you do-that's what you do. jigga happens to be good at it. but many of us just expected more from nas. i don't hate him for it, just disappointed. he came wicked on stillmatic, but it feels a little bit like hatin'!! battle raps won't get him the title. a couple of tight cd's will get him back on track though.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

The definition of lyricist is not Master Percy. Any rep from the SOUTH is BITCH MADE with some exceptions. Master P-Bitch made, Lil' Wayne-bitch made, anyone else with lil' or big in there is BITCH MADE. A lyricist award should be awarded to the following: Biggie, Jay-Z, Nas, Common, Mos Def, Pharoahe Monch, 2Pac (early years) and with another album like Marshall Mathers LP Eminem. As for the best in battle rap 2Pac (later years), L.L. Cool J, Jay-Z with a track like "Takeover" and Biggie Smalls with the 2Pac retaliation tracks such as "Long Kiss Goodnight" and "Dig 'em up(unreleased)".

-- Ski-dub (Skinnie81@hotmail.com), September 19, 2001.

Anyone whose top 3 lyricists are p, luda, and nelly needs to get the fuck outta this discussion

-- Thix (tylahix@yahoo.com), September 19, 2001.

I'm tired of people saying Nas ain't commercial. Than the what the hell was "You Owe Me" w/ Ginuwine all about? Oochie Wally? He was trying to gain commercial success mu fuckas. Like Jay-Z said Niggas betta learn to respect the King. Hov got all this rap game on lock even with his sorry ass Roc-a-fella crew. Nas don't know who he wants to be anymore. He failed at being a thug because Cormega pulled his card in XXL and admitted that Nas never slanged crack/rock. Nas is a poet and he should keep his ass in the books and not try to be a thug cause he aint. Hov is gutter and he makes music that everyone can feel. That nigga ain't commercial. that nigga is a smart ass business man who is making some mean ass loot. So quit hating on my nigga. So mark my words DMX Jada Mobb Deep Jayo Felony Nas QB whoever ya'll can't fuck with Jay on the mic. Don't throw rocks at the throne bitch.

-- s-1 (murda4life@collegeclub.com), September 19, 2001.

You're all 35-year-old white male accountants in Jersey City, aren't you?

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 19, 2001.

y'all need to peep OLU DARA ... Nas' FATHER. he does some ill southern folk/caribbean/bluesy stuff with guitar and the cornet. this proves that nas has musical genes. he is a poet, a musician. but, he ain't no gangsta. jay-z is a gangsta. 2pac will NEVER be the greatest lyricist ever. he is just one of the greatest rappers ever. there's a big difference. his shiy like "it's all about you" "changes" "i ain't mad atchya" "get around" "live and die in l.a." ... they don't showcase great lyricism. they showcase a great performer who can make ya feel what he feels. when there is a debate about lyrics, and rapstyles, how can you argue with biggie's "notorious thugs" or "the what" with methoman or "nasty boy" or "going back to cali" or "everyday struggle." and don't hate jay-z for giving props to the dead. battling and feuding is for the living. even dr. dre made peace with eazy-e. ain't no use to feud ... unless 2pac is still alive. jay-z understands that 2pac was great. he just didn't like him when he was alive. and if y'all are throwin in corny emcees into the mix like master p and nelly, how about busta rhymes. he's got ... many stylez, many stylez. the one joint with mystical is off the heebeez, and "the body rock" with puffy, mase and rampage, busta wrecked it. give props where props are due. commercial or not, jay-z is great. and, nans is a great poet. but, when it comes to KING OF NEW YORK, the title stays with HOVA. whoever talked smack about nas' "you owe me" with ginuine with also the "hate me now" track is right. nas tried to ride the train. lost his hop faithful. the illegitmate son of prince rakim has lost much of his ooomph. battle rhymes died out in the mid nineties anyway.

-- A.Sol (deo_sol14@excite.com), September 19, 2001.

H to the Izzo V to the Izzay what the fuck is that nigga tryin to say stupid azz jigga never pulled a trigga Nas is right / Jay-Z is a HOMO

-- JayNova (izzo@stupidazz.com), September 19, 2001.

That last line didn't rhyme.

-- Dan Perry (djperry@post.harvard.edu), September 19, 2001.

This is fa all ya niggaz out there that is feelin this shit that's goin on between jay-z and naz. It aint nuttin but a shitfest. jay hova's got skills but he need to stay away from battle rappin, especially wit nasty nas, that nigga will eat his ass like cornbread! Jay is definetly the hottest in the game right now but he need to stick wit what he know. HE aint know gangsta rappa JAy just keep it tight. ANd nasty need to come out of the shell he was in oochie, that's cool but he need to burn them hits like back in the day. ANy way I'm out niggaz. One

-- jamal j. (j_raw2k1@yahoo.com), September 19, 2001.

i'm feelin' you A.Sol!! i just wanted to apologize to all for saying i give jigga 41/2 mics a few lines back. after listening to each cut a few more times, in my humble opinion it's a definate 5. he brought it all on this one. initially i gave him a 41/2 for biased reasons. but to give him anything less than 5, i'd truly be hatin'. this one's a classic. as for nas.., wasted talent is a sad thing. there is so much that he can potentially bring to this game. i don't know if the love is there anymore though. maybe the money and the fame had a little too much of an affect on him. right now i'm seeing nas as whitney houston....all the talent in the world, but what the fuck is going on?!!! or should i say mariah?

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 19, 2001.

and another thing. i think for anyone to put down an entire coast is bullshit. although i don't agree that master p and nelly are on the top 10 lyricist list[:):)lol], there are several wicked lyricist from every coast and in between. but understand that opinions will differ. i'm feelin many artists from rawkus records but another nigga might not because you can't dance to it or it might not be gangsta enough. on the other hand i might not be feelin their music because they ain't talkin about shit or they're not teachin me anything. as long as you are being true to the music you're trying to put out and to yourself, i've got to respect!! oh, sorry for gettin off the subject. NAS VS JAY Z.........JIGGA BY UNANIMOUS DECISION. did i spell that right? decision....hmmm.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 19, 2001.

Vashon...."i'm about a dolla, what the fuck is 50 cents?" did u forget that line? jay is the man, he never fell off. where have u guys been for the last 5 years? as a matter of fact, u musta been at the same place nas has been at. u cant be the man with 2 hot songs an album. any song on any of jay's albums could be hit singles. u cant top that. hova is the king of hip-hop. nas aint even on the level to suck jay's nuts.

-- Joe Maffei (COO@MULTIPLEBJS.COM), September 19, 2001.

On Illmatic and Reasonable Doubt Nas and Jay-Z were keeping it real, rapping what they knew, wallpaper, green chairs, fudge banana swirl. Then Jay-Z got snooty-tooty and no more green chairs for him, it's all the black lampshade of elegance. Flying porchmats and tendril-charming piddle. No, you're wrong, Jay-Z triumphs, it's not the black of death, it's the black of eyelashes! the black of whiskbrooms! the black of stereo components! And Nas isn't even green chair. He's green stool maybe. And that's no green, it's olive green, gangrene, anemia green. "Olive green" you say? It's martini green! The stemware blade of slit-you stillness, Nas is. He's a poet, a Rod McKuen. Nas? A Rod McKuen? He's a Washcloth McKuen. While Jay-Z is the McKuen Daddy, the laser-sharp flare of autumnular grace, the fire - no, no, wait! - the firefly night-style - no, wait, wait, STOP!

What the fuck is "autumnular grace"?

It's the automative shift-up rev-up into the smooth food crusher--

No. You're making that up. It doesn't MEAN ANYTHING.

Mean anything? MEAN anything? I come in talking two C's. That's still the price. I come because I thought I'd get a take it or leave it, one right gee to another. Now you're waving "meaning" at me. You oughta be ashamed of yourself.

OK. You're right. I'm sorry. So what you're saying is that Nas is the orgasm technicolor reflex, and Jay-Z is the long cool glide?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 19, 2001.

not sure i follow, but it sounds wicked. hhmmm.....not sure

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 19, 2001.

But jazz is hard to follow; I mean you actually have to like jazz to follow it; and my motto is, never follow anything. But my post follows your post, so I've just revealed myself as a hypocrite. If there's a moral here, it's that real isn't something to copy, it's something to create. And by the way, you did spell decision right.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 20, 2001.

#1 To whoever said Pac ain't one of the best when it comes to lyrics, you r wrong. He had it from the start of his rap career to the end. PAIN--steady thuggin' in the streets/ and i'll be ballin' loc/ don't let'em make you worry/ keep swingin' at these suckas till you buried/ i was born to raise hell, a nigga from the gutta,/ with a motha on drugs/ i'm kickin dust up/ ready ta bust/ i'm on the scene/ steady muggin' mean /until they kill me/ i'll be livin this life/ i know you feel me. One of his last UNTIL THE END OF TIME--- Perhaps I was addicted to tha dark side/ Some where inside my childhood I missed my heart die / And even though we both came from tha same places /Tha money and tha fame made us all change places /Could it be through tha misery/ They can't get past?/ The hard times make a true friend afraid to ask/ for currency but you can run to me when you need it/.... It never stop, when my mama ask me will I change/ I tell her yeah but it's clear I'll always be tha same/.... Remain strong in this planet full of playa hataz/ They conversate but Death Row full of demonstrators/ And in tha end drinkin' henassy/ made all my enemies envy me/ So cold when I flow eliminatin' easily/ Fall to they knees, they plead for they right to breath / While beggin' me to keep tha peace haha/ What I can see closer to achieve/ In times of danger don't freeze time to be a G/ Follow my lead I supply everything you need/ An ounce of game and tha trainin' to make a G'/ Remember me? No disrespect but do your homework cuz. #2 Whoever wanted to bring Nelly, Luda, and Mystcal into the debate ...you r str8 up tripin. That's all I'll say on them; they don't even get half a bar from me. #3 Don Was, I agree with you to a point dogg, but why does one person have to stick to one style? How come Nas can't do some thug songs and then do some Puff songs too? I feel you on an artist being true, but why can't he try it all without being lable a seelout. I'm not sayin you said this, but we shouldn't pigion hold people. Besides it ain't one rapper that I can think of that has a CD with nothing but HARDCORE songs, I said it before, u gotta put out a few MTV songs. I know many disagree, but u can't have it both ways. Some are going by the sales. Okay, well the MTV songs sale. But if Nas keeps it all street then it won't sale as many and then peeps say "It only sold half a mil." And Jay has put out many less than hardcore songs why isn't he called out for that? Izzo, and Girls, Girls. I like em both but if y'all goin say Nas fell off with "Hate me now" remember it goes both ways. Holla. Qoolout of D.C. baby

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

this battle is nice, like someone said before i hope it dosent turn violent, anyways as far as greatest lyricist, i got to give it to RAKIM...THE MASTER!

-- pj (pj_forever74@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

Jay-Z ate Nas ass up. Me and my boy just listened to that shit, and we LOVED when Kay called two of Nas' albums "doo!" That shit's hilarious! Second, Jay-Z will never be the King of NY. It's still Biggie - 5 years after his death. Jay-Z is the king of hip-pop, which is not necessarily a diss. I like Jay-Z a lot, but I recognize that 90% of his success is based on collabos (whoever's hot at the time) and production. Timbaland, Dr. Dre, DJ Premier, Swizz Beatz, the Neptunes, etc. all produce his songs. How can they NOT be hits? He's nice lyrically, but with such great production he doesn't have to really try. 2Pac is without a doubt the greatest rapper of all time. He ate the East Coast alive on Hit Em Up, then he ate them up (along with gay ass Dre) on Makaveli. As a rapper, 2Pac stands alone at the top. Biggie was a great lyricist, but his delivery was nowhere near Pac's. Nor Nas, Jay-Z, or Jada or anybody. The reason Pac is the best is because he can take any lyric and any beat and make it a hit. I mean if I wrote a song, and I had Big, Jay-Z, Pac, DMX, Eminem, Meth, Red, whoever perform what I wrote, Pac would make it sound the best. No one else can do that. Especially not monotone Jay-Z or snot in the throat Biggie. Eminem comes the closest to combining lyrics and delivery like Pac. Another thing, I'm from the South. Our lyrics may not be all that, but that South thrives on production and delivery or basically, making your head bob. If you ain't bankhead bouncin when you hear a song, then take that shit out the South. And if you notice, that's why nobody talks about king of the South because there's so many rappers with hits. Outkast, UGK, Three 6, 8ball, Timbaland, Master P, Ludacris, Jermaine Dupri, and all of the one hit wonders. The South is where it's at. So in closing 2Pac reigns, with BIG and Eminem following (don't hate on the white boy) and the South makes you bounce. We ain't worried about weak ass poetry with music. P.S. Mos Def, Black Thought, Common, PMonch, and all those earthy Erykah Badu's little sons bastards all sound the same - extremely dick in he bootie.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), September 20, 2001.

Ally, more like 12 year old white males

-- Ronan (fitzger@statoil.com), September 20, 2001.

Can someone give me the 411 on Jay-Z . Dont know nothing bout him.

-- anthony (anthonyeaston@home.com), September 20, 2001.

What do you want to know?

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

I agree with everything Hillis 3000 said.

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

Let me just re-iterate. Tupac did nothing for rap, where can you hear his influence now? Where? Nowhere because noone is willing to reproduce the sort of cheesey loungey, Mariah Carey without lyrics type beats he had and his pretentious bastard Rose from Concrete Makiveli bullshit. Was his voice anything particularly special? Hardly. Cemented the gangsta posturing??? Hardly ,it was well in place by the time his day came along. In case you didnt know Tupac is up with Aphex Twin on my hate list.

-- Ronan (fitzger@statoil.com), September 20, 2001.

I like the quality of Biggie's voice more (small diff. w/H3K) and you have to hand it to him for creating his own scene. But 2Pac was more vulnerable than Biggie. You could hear it in his voice, that he was struggling. It takes guts to bare yourself like that on record. Somehow the way Biggie invested in his own myth didn't allow him to. Self-doubting rap = more to relate to (for this hed).

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

I keep telling ya lame niggad that Jay-z And Nas is Lame Fabolous is the nigga ya should be talking about Ghetto Fabolous is better than the Blueprints

-- Michael (fabolous1133@aol.com), September 20, 2001.

Don, I'm not too familiar with either Jay Z or Nas's oeuvre but in your professional opinion which one could walk the dinosaur?

-- Billy Dods (butterbubble9@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

Are the Fabolous songs without Nate Dogg on them anywhere near as good as the single that's out now? Somehow I doubt it.

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

Fabulous is average at best, his flow is suspect, his delivery is nothing to get excited about, and the only good thing he has done musically is steal a hook from 2Pac and have Nate Dogg guest star - both of which have been done before, so the bastard isn't even original.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), September 20, 2001.

Ronan this is for you. 1st of all, Pac has all of the sterotypes because 80% of the people out have copied him. Master P and cash money and a lot of others are wanna be Pacs. Even those who don't str8 up bite him, have used some of his lines. Like Jay-Z, "not a demon, but a rose in the cement," or another Jay Z line "You wasn't using it right, you made it a hot line, I made it a hot song," Pac already said that, "Yeah I took y'alls beat, you wasn't rockin it right." Second, you say "what did he do for rap?" He did too much for me to try to explain it dogg. Like I said before, you need to do your homework. What rapper made an entire song about his mother before Pac did it? Scarface (maybe) is the only one I can think of. Now just about all of them wanna do it. Who was saying that they was a Thug before Pac made it popular? Now every single so called hardcore rapper has to say "I'm a Thug." And you can't hold Pac responible for "Rose in the cement." If it was bad, don't say Pac put out a bad CD. He didn't produce that, and he did decide who would read and flow on there. Tell me if Pac is so bad, who is it that you like? Nines times outta ten, you'll say someone who probably copied Pac. And to the person who says Ghetto Fab is better than Blueprints... I'm not gonna touch that statment. I'll let someone else handle that. Holla, Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

And another thing... Ronan, this may be cliched but, put down the Haterade. I bet you're one of them niggas who don't like Jordan, says Shaq has no skill, thinks Iverson is a thug, swears Randy Moss is overrated, and thinks Wayne Chrebet is better than Keyshawn.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), September 20, 2001.

I agree with the guy who said Rakim. 2Pac was the thug and Biggie was the king, Nas is the poet and Jigga is the pop king, but yall need to remember: RAKIM WAS THE GOD. If he was in his prime today, with the production today's rappers get, yall heads would be spinning because nobody could flow so nice as the god Rakim. If you don't own up to this you don't have hip-hop love or knowledge.

As for Jay v Nas, Nas maybe had more talent than Jay originally, but face it Nas fans, after Illmatic it has gone to waste. In '95 you had an argument based on lyrical skills but not anymore, and the only reason people say he is better than Jay is because they are HOVA HATIN. A lot of you people who were noddin to the shit on Vol 2, yeah even Hard Knock! don't lie to me nigga, I saw you in the club! turned around and started hatin Jay when Vol 2 blew up.

Look at it: most everyone knows Nas has lost the lyrical depth, and everyone agrees he can't put together club tracks as hot as Jay. J puts out "Izzo" and hatas call it pop sellout but they forget that Nas put out shit like "K.I.S.S.I.N.G." which is just an attempt to copy Jiggaman and turn pop, but its not as hot a track for the club as Jay can make and lyrically it is pure garbage. Jay has put out some weak shit at times but never anything as sad as "K.I.S.S.I.N.G."

Roc-a-wear does suck tho. My boy got some and it fell apart. Peace.

-- eric (rakimthegod@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

my, my, have things gotten ugly here. i think what many are not quite following is the point that nas has not, IN MY OPINION, put out a good cd since illmatic.
-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

well, this really sucks. I just wrote a huge paragraph and only got a couple of lines to come out in print. 1st complaint. guess it wasn't that important, but don't worry... i remember it. i'll bless you all in a few.

-- DonWas (mailto:donpaul1@hotmail%20.com), September 20, 2001.

to add to what i was saying... basically after the 1st cd nas put out (classic), fans flocked to get his 2nd. disappointment led to lower sales on his 3rd, 4th, and so on. now i don't think there is anything wrong with putting out a 'popular' cd to ensure your grandkids are fed. but at the very least, give the 'popular' fans something they want to hear. what's unfortunate is that nas doesn't seem to thrive off of mainstream hip hop as jay does. i don't personally listen to most mainstream hip hop, but jay attracts my attention because he happens to bridge the gap better than, quite possibly anyone before. true, i like mos def, kweli, common, outkast, and the rest of erykah's kids(that was pretty funny), but good music is good music. and for the most part, i don't think nas has come with it in a while. and by the way, R.I.P. 2pac and big: and forgive us, many of us just take things to heart when it comes to your name.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

A rose in the cement

Yeah, well I'm a cactus in the poodle garden. So what?

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 21, 2001.

jay-z is a good guy but his shit is LAME! rhyming pussy with wussy? what in the fuck is that?!

-- lil chi**man (esturbo@hotmail.com), September 22, 2001.

They should reference this thread in an episode of Futurama, because I have a feeling it will last for several thousand years.

-- Ned Raggett (ned@kuci.org), September 22, 2001.

Bottom Line: Nas still is and always will be Nasty. He has not dropped off at all, anyone that claims that is definitely not up on the shit going on in NYC (so stay the fuck out!). Jigga has never had an album even close to half as good as Illmatic or It Was Written, and he never will. Know why? Because he is a commercial- ass pussy nigga. Sure, he makes all those party songs, but that is all he is good for. If you love seeing a faker hustler punk on your MTV, the Box, and BET, than by all means, you probably love Jay-Z and his gay ass. Haha. True MCs do not need all the ice and bling-bling BS that is so common today. Did you ever see Marly Marl, RUN DMC, LL, MC Shan, Bambatta, Stetsa, Nas, Rakim, Cube, Dre, MC Lyte, EPMD, Redman, Raekwan, Mobb Deep, GangStarr, or the Bootcamp pull any lame shit like wanting to be up on MTV all day like all the studio gangsters out there now? No. Hells no. That shit all became popular with Homos like Puff and Jigga, Cash Money, etc. To all you that think Jigga is jiggy, enjoy his ass and stay the fuck outta NYC and QB. Jadakiss and Nas are more than enough to cut Roc-a-fella down to size. Jigga didn't even coin the term roc-a-fella, he just stole it from one of the realest, that shows you what he is all about.

-- QB soulja (jsuarez@hotmail.com), September 22, 2001.

hold up man, yall boys better recognize lil flip. i can do that. i predict hisd shit will sell between a hundred thousand and 8.6 million, thats just my to me, you might have a different to me, it just depend. also, that nigga lil romeo wreck shit for a young un, and he got some hang time. he keepin it gutter

-- lil whoadie (lilwodie@hotmail.com), September 22, 2001.

qb soldia speaks the truth, nas's shit all fits together and sounds good. jay-z sounds like he just puts random things together and says them, and surprise surprise, its sounds totally WACK

-- chi**man (esturbo@hotmail.com), September 22, 2001.

yo!! who ever thing jay homo is better than NAS u need a reality check jay homo is as comercial as it comes yes reasoniable dought was a good album but is it beter than illmatic NAS feel off in terms of having hits i dont thing he completly fell off we jus haven't heard him on the radio as much if u a real hiphop head u would know this

BOTTOM LINE NAS IS WAY BETTER THAN JAY HOMO THIS WILL BE PROVEN WHEN HIS ALBUM COMES OUT AND THEN WE ALL CAN (SALUTE HIM)!!!!! HOLLA

-- gilson veiga (cv_mathaimatikz@blackplanet.com), September 23, 2001.

stay the fuck out of ny and qb huh? nas hasn't tried to bling bling it huh? just wait til nas' next cd comes out, right? i don't really think this needs to be addressed, but okay. for starters you probably need to leave that shelter in qb and realize that there are many talented emcees outside of ny. there is a lot of bs that comes out of ny. if you are a true hip hop fan i needn't remind you that you'll find talent and bullshit just about everywhere you look. now i don't want to waste anymore time on that issue so just listen to ras kass''sonset', track 7(from the 'soul on ice' cd). 2ndly, i think nas has been trying to bling bling it as much as the next emcee on his last few cd's(including the firm). and lastly, i don't know if jay is gay or not (that seems to be the justification something i haven't quite figured out). what i do know is that until nas does put out a good cd(it's been a while), he simply won't compare. you can call 'blueprint' commercial or whatever, but it's the best hip hop cd i've heard this year.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.

Yeah, gilson, we all need a reality check because reality is pickin' boogers and worshipping armpits and scaling the highest puddle. (Not that Nas is to blame. He's another petty bully homophobe, but hardly the only one.)

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 23, 2001.

I’ve read some ridiculous statements here! Master P or Nelly? He must be like 12 for real !! Anyway…When Jay-Z (what I will always refer to him as) first dropped he was mad creative, for real. I remember hearing him on a mix tape my man made, I was like “who’s that”. Jumped on the first LP...then skipped all the others until this last one. The production is elite, and he’s making the head the nod! Is it glamorous? yah it is.. but I give props where its do. I don’t like that “bling” shit but he actually came with some original joints this time around (like the Jay-Z I first remembered) It’s an art peoples, its about being original. As far as what’s in whip's CD changer now; The Roots, Talib Kwali, Best of Gangstarr, Dead Prez, and the new Maxwell joint (for the ladies) As far as lyricist are concerned (in random order)...Rakim, Biggie, Black thought, Nas, Guru, KRS1, and yes Jay-Z. Peace-

-- Rommel (rommelespinal@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.

ey whats that song, i think its drag on and eve. some of the lines are "LEts talk about BITCHES I FUCK" Then eve, or some broad says "LEts talk about LIL DICK NIGGAS" They go back and forth, this song was tite but i cant remember it, somebody help me out. holla

-- unhunh (simcol1111@aol.com), September 23, 2001.

it's on eve's first cd. w/ drag-on. lyricists- no particular order- Ra, KRS, BIG, Kweli, Mos Def, Ras Kass, Eminem, Jigga, and several underground artists. this list could change next week of course. you know how hip hop fans are. best female lyricist- hmmm, maybe foxy brown...don't know. any input? the nas vs jay z issue is getting tired.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.

I gots ta agree with hills 3000 about what he says about jay Z. The only reason jay z is on top and even being considered as the "king of new york" is because of the tight producers he is able to work with. Most other artists can only afford to have a song or two produced by a well known producer, while jay can afford to have his entire album produced by an all star cast. Needless to say, tight beats coupled with Jay-Z's gimmicky rhyme style leads to high sales. Without those tight beats, nobody would even be considering JAY Z' as being anywhere in the top ten. I bet nobody (except the rocafella dicksuckers) would claim that Jay Z's Reasonable doubt was better then any of the other classics, namely Illmatic, Blackstar, Me Against the World, and All Eyes on Me. In order to be a great MC, you must first be on top lyrically. When I say lyrically, i don't mean gimmicky, dolla flashin, booty rhymes. I mean lyrically complex, consious rhymes that brings something to the hiphop world that no one else can. With that in mind, I can't even consider jay z as one of the best. Rappers now (that are living) that could be condidered include: Nas(Illmatic), Mos def, Talib Kweli, Common, Chino XL, Rakim, Shabam Sadiq, Black Thought, and the old Rass Kass. The deaceased and old school rappers I would inlcude are: Tupac, KRS-one, Public Ememy, Tragedy the intelligent thug, Dana dane, Slick Rick, and Big Daddy Kane. All this bullshit about da ROC being number 1 is gabage because if jay z were to die tommorow, the roc would die also. As a final note, don't let album sales, determine who is the best MC. Just because a nigga is hot at the moment and sells a bunch of CD's doesn't make him the greatest of all time. Cause if that were the case the best rappers would be Nelly, mater p, and ludacris.

-- Bwrecks (biruke@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.

tired tired tired. nas, try putting out another good cd. period< that's all i ask. illmatic was definately classic...what year was that? you've put out bullshit since then. on mic skills alone, there are several top notch emcees. some of you have named a few, but to not include jay has to be considered hatin'. it's understandable though. hip hop fans have always been kinda finicky. especially when one artist starts gettin all the glory.(i know it's also killin niggas that eminem is gettin so much praise for his skills, but you can't front. the kid brings it) 'blueprint' is straight up classic material. of course i could really do without the remix to 'girls girls girls'. it actually sounds like some beat nas would use. nas has HAD any producer he's wanted to work with, but he has not been able to come close to another classic cd, so obviously his formula has not been working as of late. nas, i challenge you to put out a cd this millenium that is not total bullshit!! i thought this conversation was over?!! ya killin me kogan!! lol:)

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.

all yall muthafuckers crazy especially the ones that wrote the long ass shit on here get a fuckin life! assholes!

-- (1hotgirl@excite.com), September 23, 2001.

2pac is still alive. his death was a sham. he faked his death to make money outta you suckers and it worked.

-- he can't fool me (youfools@hesalive.com), September 23, 2001.

Best Female Rapper - Lauryn Hill

-- Thix (tylahix@yahoo.com), September 23, 2001.

1hotgirl is actually the gay rapper!

i agree, lauryn hill!

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

Is 1hotgirl implying that we should get the fuckin' life in our assholes? Intriguing suggestion.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 24, 2001.

yo i'm from the west....and for realz Jay z is doin his thing. Nas had fallen off like jus like the world trading center ( r.i.p to those who died) I think Beans and Jada are about the same. But Jada's album is better than Beans. Oh the G.O.A.T is Makaveli...his shit is deep like the abyss. ne wayz i'm out.

-- Jay (lo_ves711@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

Burp!

-- Ha Ha Ha you'll never know (HEHEHE@Hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

Heh.

-- Darren K. (darrenscoq@aol.com), September 24, 2001.

*rotfl*

-- Ally (garance80@Yahoo.com), September 24, 2001.

best female rapper....jay-z

jay-z is witty,nas is deep,jay-z is clever,nas is intelligent.

the reason tupac fits the gangster rap stereotype is because he took ghetto life and values and represented them even in court.wherever he went he still handled life the way he would if he'd been in the project hallways.so the rest of the ghetto-ignorant people even as far away as london took him as the basic american gangster rapper.

tupac's voice wasnt straining you fool.his voice changed to reflect the emotion of the song unlike biggie's.

-- wizard (whitneym89@hotmail.com), September 24, 2001.

Yo I was digging jay back in the day but now he done lost his mind! Nas is the MAN and is way deep than jay. peace to the god

-- yellowmello (yellowmello7@yahoo.com), September 24, 2001.

1st of all hotgirl.......If we don't have lives and you want to critique are lives, what does that make you? Best lyric makers gotta be Pac, BIG, Jada, Nas, Jay-Z and maybe a few more. Eminem got some skills, but he loses some points with me when he raps about sexin' dead mammals and all that nonsense. Yes I reconize his talent, but you have to take all of his stuff in to account. And one last thing about him, I'm not hating, but tell him to beef with someone who will beef back and leave the pop stars alone. Brintey and Christina and the boy bands....all of that is funny, but if you gonna call out some one don't pick on a lil softee, take it to the real. And that Fred D doesn't count. Now, about Rakim. I guess he had his time back in the day, but ain't no way you can say he'd be the man today. Naw, they rapping about other things now, and didn't he already try a comeback? Now about Nas... I guess everybody is sayin that his first CD was untouchable. If that is the case then stop comparing all his others to it. Just becasue they are not as tight, doesn't mean they are str8 up weak. John Singleton put out Boyz-N- the Hood as his 1st movie. He can never put out a better movie, don't hate on the next movies because it is impposble to match a true classic. Think about that 1. And you can't really tell me that Nas last few CD's didn't have at least something you were feeling. Listen to "We will Survive" or "I want to talk to You" or "Last Words." I'm telling y'all he is still spittin some true-make-you-sit-down-and-think-about- it-type-rhymes. And as far as sales, that means nothing. With all of the downloading and the bootlegs, and Nelly out selling Jigga...that should tell you. Sales don't prove a thing. Holla. And P.S. Beans don't want Jada 4real. Ask Bleek, he don't want it wit J. I can't wait for round 2. I hope there is a round 2. Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 25, 2001.

We only get half a bar. Fuck us.

-- Honda (darkcorn7x@aol.com), September 25, 2001.

Oh my bad BEST FEMALE RAPPER - Jay-Z then Lauryn

NAS IS THE SHIT

one love

-- Thix (tylahix@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

I am with you on Lauryn. I've been saying for 2 years that her next album shd be ALL RAP.

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

HoLLa back to all you fake niggas who keep tryin to play my son fab on some wack shit my son is better than jay and nad HoLLa back

-- Mike (Fabolous1133@aol.com), September 25, 2001.

Yo, ya'll niggas is crazy.

Nas is the realist muthafucka in the game ever PERIOD.

GAY-Z IS A FAGGOT.

He can't fuck with nas, his organziation is filled with rappers who can onyl make gold records. And they only getting gold because of Jay-Z features. Nas is the fucking best rapper our right now and he been doing it for 10 years twice as long as Gay-Z. Gay-Z shoula retired after Hard Knock Life but he tried so hard to get muthafucking Shitie Sigel and Shitis Bleek on.

Them niggaz aint gangsta Jay-Z hasn't been in Marcy since 1997, Memphis is still in Marcy living in his mama's house picking roaches out of his bowl of Krasdale Fruit Rings and water. Nas still goes back to the Bridge same goes for the Mobb. The Bridge is real black people, them niggaz from Philly and Marcy are fucking jokes. Jadakiss chewed the shit out of Beanie's long ass freestyle on Empire Strikes Back. That shit went waaay too long and that shit was talking about nothing. Listen to Jada's shit

..and I aint making no more songs either so when I shoot him in his face dont' say that I'm wrong neither

...I hate Beans but fuck it kiss gonna eat

...I don't know where they found you son but since your pops aint around I'm gonna punish and groudn you son...

Comon that's blood raw nigga what did beanie say

I'm gonna sun Kiss like a soda

That was fucking weak that made me laugh the only thing redeemable in that entire corny freestle weaker than something my grandmother could write was

I know why Styles say he the ghost of this shit I can tell in your style he wrote most of your shit

Man Nas kills

Like my nigga Pac said Jay-Z is a corny sounding muthafucker with big dick sucking lips

-- Nasty Muthafucking Nas (masonmurder@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

Mason Murder - no doubt Nas eats Jigga for lunch in a freestyle contest - or almost any rhyming contest - but you have to respect that Jay-Z can write songs. Everything on the new album sounds like a single. Nas tracks sound like just that - tracks - some Primo beat on repeat or summat. I respect that too and sometimes that's what I want to hear but no matter who Jigga sticks his dick in you have to recognize that the man has got skills, just different ones.

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

I THINK ITS JUST BULLL NORE AND STYLES ARE THE ILLEST RAPPERZ qvb NIGGAZ BLOOD UP

-- RAMO Bettio (lilterror17@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

I liked Jay-z back in the day. . . When he dropped the STREETZ IS WATCHIN' LP . . . Now all of a sudden, he flipped and went straight 'POP'. Him and his corny ass H to the Izzo shit. Thats type MTV shit. They should air that on TRL along with Nsync and the Backstreet Boys. He lost his touch. On the other hand, Nas never lost it. . . he stayed street till the end. No one who knows RAP can ever say Jay-z can take Nas in a battle. Nas would and DID rip his ass apart. Anyone disagreein with that. . . Go listen to your P-diddy and Nelly cds cuz you obviously don't know shit about RAP. Read my shit I put down on August 30th on this website

-- AiDaN (aidan1023@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

Wassup Every1. Ok while I don't know the exact origins of the beef between Jay-Hov' and Nas I can tell you this....without a shadow of a doubt Jay-Z won the battle between the two. While both Stillmatic (Nas's dis track) and Takeover (Jay's dis track) were both hard as a teenage male virgin watching a porno any true and IMPARTIAL hip-hop fan KNOWS Jay-Z won. While I'm a devoted fan of both S.Carter and N.Jones lyrically Jay GAVE IT TO Nas!! Come with me on this 1, how bout Jay's line "you's the fag model for Karl Kani Esco as/ went from Nasty Nas to Esco's trash/ had a spark when you started but now you're just garbage/ fell from top ten to not mentioned at all/ till your body guard's Oochie Wally's verse better than yours/ matter of fact you had the worst flow on the whole f*cking song/ but I know/ the sun don't shine/ the sun don't shine....". And the screaming ad- libs in the background just put the icing AND THE CANDLES on the cake! It was great to witness a battle between two of raps most gifted emcees ever, either one has an legitimate claim to best lyricist ever. However I was shocked and disappointed that this battle between Jay and Nas was so 1-sided, I mean who won is not even DEBATABLE, Jay won. I thought it was gonna to be a close call, you know....the rap Clash of the Titans, the Ali/Frazier of hip-hop, one 4 the record books. I do hope Nas can rebound from this....this.....lyrical thrashing courtesy of Hova because I would hate to see Nas go out in an undignified fashion. He and Jay have both contributed TREMENDOUSLY to rap and I would like to see BOTH of them gracefully bow out when the time comes. Oh and one more thing, I wish everybody would get off Eminem's D*CK! Yes he's nice, yes he has skills, but don't OVERcredit just because he's a legitimate white rapper. He's nice on the mic but don't make it bigger than it actually IS, ask yourself this question, would you praise his skills this much if her were BLACK, would we even know who he is if he were Black....NOOOO. I mean I've seen this kat on the cover of so many magazines and praised on so many radio stations you would think he was the second coming of Rakim, hell the second coming of JESUS!!! I mean don't get me wrong, lyrically Eminem is sick, but he's not TERMINALLY ILL! He can't touch any of the hip-hop heavyweights such as Jay-Z, Nas, or DMX, he can't even f*ck wit Jadakiss on the battle tip so every just calm the hell down 4 a minute. I mean every1 was ridin' his dick b4 his SECOND ALBUM even dropped! Let duke earn a few more albums and let him earn his stripes b4 you start fitting his head 4 a crown ight, lets get over the fact that he's a WHITE rapper and just look at him as a RAPPER and judge him accordingly. Let's give him the credit he deserves as we do all other rappers, no more and no less. Peace and Love.

-- Anjasha (mailto:The%20PrinceofVA@aol.com), September 25, 2001.

I really have to confess I have no clue what the hell is going on in this thread anymore.

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), September 25, 2001.

"LL,the greatest rapper of all time","The greatest rapper of all time died on March 9th", Fuck that,the greatest rapper of all time just dropped The Blueprint.

-- Brad Shelton (showdown30@yahoomessanger.com), September 26, 2001.

Fuck sales! Fuck mag covers! Fuck the press! illmatic, that's it, the only one, garbage since. For starters, yes, illmatic was a classic, but for anyone to say that it's the peak and we shouldn't expect nas to show growth from that, should go back to school. No, nas shouldn't try to outdo illmatic, but he should show some growth or originality in his material. unfortunately he has not. there are talented poets everywhere. mariah carey's a talented singer but i don't want to hear her shit. put out something i want to hear. fuck it, put out something YOU want to hear. i think outkast's 1st cd was classic, but i think they showed growth on their 2nd and 3rd cd's respectively. if you've peaked on your 1st cd, leave the business. there's nothing more you can give us. also, eminem 's shit is staightup wicked. white, black, whatever, the kid's got skills. i'm not really a fan of his voice but his shit is original, he flows over all types of beats, he's shown some battling skills, and he holds his own on every cd he's been on. yeah, he get's a lot of praise, but so did biggie, after 1 cd(annointed king of ny). yeah he's on all the mag covers. but he's still skilled enough to be on a rawkus records cd. sure, i think he get's more praise because he's white. but i don't buy the mags, i don't care much about the press, i don't really care who else is feelin him. but i know when i hear him on a track, i listen to the lyrics. the talent cannot be denied. he'd hold his own with just about anyone right now.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 26, 2001.

I know the debate is getting old, but gotta put my 2 cents in ... All you NAS dicklickers, realize what you write. NAS is NOW and for the last two years has been one of those studio gangstas who rocks the "bling-bling," lest we forget "YOU OWE ME" with Ginuine or "HATE ME NOW" with your luvable Sean Combs. Nas played himself out. Don't get me wrong, I like Nas. I thought he came with the diggs on Illmatic and It Was Written. His "Street Dreams" and "Black Girl Lost" and "I Gave you Power" and the Dr. Dre joint ... can't remember the name ... those were powerful, well written songs. But, everyone on this discussion has pointed to the heart of this debate ... what the fukk has Nas put out since? Love him or hate him, Jay-Z is a hit maker.

So, how do we define the title "King of New York"? I like that the discussion matured to arguing which rapper was better at what. Lyrically, Nas may be better. Changing up styles might go to Jay-Z. Nas has the freestyle battle, no doubt. Jay-Z is a better writer. Look at the whole. I don't know if you cats realize that Jay-Z writes like a quarter of the rap songs out there. He made the Neptunes famous. He wrote Dr. Dre's "Still D.R.E." He gives average rappers like Beanie Siegel credibility. Don't talk crews ... this is between Nas and Jay-Z. Jay-Z gets the nod. He may have a pop appeal. But, that's what gets him the loot. He brings it thug too. Shyt, "Big Pimpin" would be straight thug if all those white fraternity boys didn't get on the dikk. Y'all hear "If I Should Die" on the Life and Times ... vol. 2?

Some of y'all hate b-c of Jay-Z commercial/pop success. But, 2pac and Big was the same way. They had their gangsta hits, and then Pac would drop a "Keep ya Head Up" or "Do for Love" and Big had his pop songs like "One More Chance remix" and "Hypnotize". Bottom line, they still were gangsta. And, they both remain at the top.

Nas is good with a classic LP and a very good sophomore LP. Jay-Z has put out 7+ quality albums, including a couple of classics. Just because he's on MTV and is good at making 14 year old kids buy his albums too, don't knock his hustle.

NEone think this is all just a media hype ... to benefit both camps?

ONE

-- A.Sol (deo_sol14@excite.com), September 26, 2001.

AND, whoever is on FABOLOUS "I wanna be the next MA$E" SPORT's cock, listen to more hip hop. He ain't bad, but he ain't worthy to be in this discussion.

AND to any of you Biggie-haters, are Y'ALL out your damn minds. Biggie is an untouchable. Stop using his name in vain.

BEST FEMALE RAPPER: Rah Digga

-- A.Sol (deo_sol14@excite.com), September 26, 2001.

Yo, I heard there’s a video tape for $150.00 dollars floating around of the supposed Gay Jay-Z squirting Nas’s wife in the face with cum. Something in accordance to Jay-Z tellin’ Nas to bow –down and out or he’ll be the next victim on the screen on the next Summer tour. Jay- Z saying he that if doesn’t, he’ll show up in the big screen. It’S on track 2 of the BLUEPRINT. Can anyone tell me how to get it on- line or address or downlaod it form somewhere. Even though I love Mobb Deep and my man is Prodigy, I give it to Jigga. He got this game locked.

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), September 26, 2001.

Why are people over looking the fact that Jay-z is not the only one with beef with Nas. All you niggaz need to cop that new Conmega LP and listen to Thun & Kicko feat. prodigy

You's a notebook crook, with loose sleave beef a backseat criminal that pass the heat to somebody that blast the heat Man, it sound bad on the pad, what happened in the street? revealing on the vinyl an analog outlaw alot of gats on your DAT, tape southpaw you thuggin' when the mic's plugged in barkin' through the speakers like you got no sense you wild on the two inch got your platinum plaques to prove it your music's been around the World movin' and it comes right back around on the ground, don't it? now it's time to face your opponent Infamous cling to this real shit, stuck where we started at fuck that, not because we have to, I want to I love this shit, the raw is what I live for to hear the sound of the crowd roar for more to see the niggas that can't pay rush the door whylin' on the dancefloor when they song come on, swingin' they fists, ready for war but it's a different type of effect, it's not violence they're just tranced by the advance tranked by the sound bank put under the drum, numbed off of our shit now who you rockin' wit'? them or us deep love or cheap lust?, QB 'll bust Infamous 'till we pass on you laughin' at the wrong shit, I take ac-tion defend my confedons nigga I write bombs that'll shatter your ambitions of bein' top dog as we move through the stage fog I need to bass more so I can taste it and make ya'll go AWOL and lose it, say no more, brace your delf, nigga it's on..

Verse 2: (Cormega)

(yo, back up yo..)

Who's tale you tellin'? are you frail or felon? were you makin' sales or watchin' niggas sellin'? you exploit niggas lives in your rhymes and then avoid 'em you never felt the moisture in the air of coke boilin' you never felt the razor scrapin' your plate your hands achin' yet you keep choppin' 'cause theres paper to make you never felt the power of invincibility clutchin' a gun like fuck it dun, it's him or me at your best you was a hand to hand no more than Three grams what the fuck you know about a Ki, man? you never hustled lets get it right, my nigga Y would've stuck you stop dry snitchin' in your rhymes, listen what you tryin' to do? help the guys in Blue? indight niggas so that can be another rhyme for you? you a parasite, you never had a life so you throw other niggas lives in your pad at night it's clever when you write it spoken well for a dude who never been indighted you know the deal mothafucka, the real make the fake niggas kneel and lose appetites when you taste niggas steel my rhymes are what it takes to get a deal and make it real I'm like Big, you can't replace the skill I laced it ill like Cocaine in Scarface's grill your mothafuckin' flow is basic, chill I'm Cormega, raw forever y'all niggas know my steez, I'm reppin' for Queens you minor league I'm big time like Mark McGwire's team your whole team is pussy, when I squeeze vaginas bleed my lyrics stay official I bagged up coke on dishes made of crystal your niggas, they won't miss you my Nickel-plated pistol - got Sixteen shots, you can take 'em wit' you to the coffin or DA's office surgeory, nurses screamin' "We lost him!" life suddenly divorced him, fuck it, it cost him if you want beef say no more brace your delf, nigga it's on, we spray Four-Fours, bitch!

Now tell me is raw next to Jay-z!!!!!!!!!

-- big O (redman6@rocketmail.com), September 26, 2001.

Another attack on Nas by Conmega.

In a jacuzzi flashin, splashin like a uzi rappin Much love for thugs, God bless B.I., askin "Whattup with Cormega?" Live niggaz keep askin The exhibition, flexin, throw my extra clip in Chrome bugotti VVS's, check it Niggaz talkin bout, how real they kept it on record Screamin out, Q.B.C. but don't rep it Am I my brothers keeper or a faggot in love with reefer? My Far Rock' niggaz would love to meet ya "Life's a Bitch" but shit gets deeper, fuck gold chains and sneakers I had dat, when cocaine was cheaper Yo, who this fake nigga soundin like me? You wanna be me, but can't see a thousand like me I'm loungin, you're like bookies on housin You see my team comin and your heart starts poundin You shook, getting paid off the book Niggaz jeal-ous, my LS is off the hook You see the Lex, you fake ass thug, you need respect or be another nigga that my fuckin heater wet My poetry is manifest, the words be correct My empire rise, now my enemies are vexed Yo Nature you finished, yo Nas you next

Yeah, clear my little man YouknowhatI'msayin, Nas It ain't nuttin personal, it's all business yaknahmsayin? You let your little faggot ass man come around me But my man got a few words he wanna say to you

Nature you fake cat, try to be down and got your chain snatched Took the shit, and your little brother's tape back Now you against the Mega star, puffin hundred stacks in a Lex, LS, doin no Escobar's When they crew speak, heard my team burn the wonder Five stars, Q.B. the Desert Storm The Mobb exclusive, check out the new kid on the next hit Find the illest kicks, play the strength, what the writer bent Hover from night to light, now push the tightest shit The tighest click, we're airtight Roll deep and wear Air Nikes, some to scare some the bear type but we rock mics and jams, like gats we cock twice Runnin with the pretty boys, bitches say that's not nice Straight out the 'Bridge, my DeLorean, showbiz And if you wanna sign me you can find me where the coke is

I'm a nightmare to "Street Dreamin" Nigga your whole crew is twenty-two's, my dudes street sweepin Prepared, never scared, ones to bolster Flex I'm ill, everything's real, ain't no special effects Yeah, bring the drama, I like the fuckin trauma A gladiator, rocking steel plated armor Yeah, you wanna step to me, you'd better bring a referee My name is 'Mega, y'all niggaz scared to death of me Yeah your man asked, I'm like a Columbian refugee Murder any nigga in sight, any day or night You see me in a jet black Lex, the coke's white Lampin on the Hill, that nigga Nature thought he ill I fucked his ass up like I'm Holyfield The Real Deal, Montana, drama for short Of course, yeah, the fucking boss Yeah, that nigga Nature talk about he takin my spot Took one punch to the face, and just dropped

It's over La, I don't even know why you even won't try to come at me This is Cor motherfuckin Mega You know I'm the baddest you fuckin faggot I'll fuck you up That's why my man took your fuckin gold chain and now he's wearin your shit in the projects, you're a fuckin bitch Knahmsayin Nas? You need to you need to you need to get a fuckin fireproof fuckin van that's how you come through the projects or niggaz'll burn your shit down Them niggaz is idiots, yo Talkin about "Street Dreams" rockin a pink ass suit What the fuck kind of dreams you niggaz workin with, man? Last crack y'all niggaz sold was y'all ass! You fuck with me, you're fuckin with the best, man, knahmsayin? But y'all niggaz ain't ready for fucking war Y'all ain't ready for the motherfuckin, the gun battles or the beatings on sight man don't fuck with me man, I got no more to say man trick ass bay-atches!

And let me say one thing Brooklyn has produce that best Rappers in the Game.

-- Big O (Redman6@rocketmail.com), September 26, 2001.

The most influential, most prolific, most incredible rapper of our time and maybe the greatest that ever lived is the unforgettable, unmistakable Tupac Shakur. Anybody that can’t understand that or does not want to admit it has problems accepting the truth or I just plain stupid. The proof is all around you. Every rapper you hear has taken or is using 2Pacs style. He has influenced so many. The man is dead and people are plays about his life. People are creating classes in respected colleges creating courses about his poetry and lifestyle. How many wifebeat shirt-wearing rappers came out after him and still rock that today? How many “thug” references can you hear and not think about 2Pac. How was it Nas, “thug life is mine”? Since when fool. Corny ass wanna be. Can act worth a shit. And what is that shit tattooed on your flabby stomach? God’s Son? Nas is so fake he makes me sick. Jay-Z’s Reasonable Doubt compared to Nas’s Illmatic would be a close tie, 52/48 for Jay-Z, but after that, Nas’s work is whack as hell with the same whack style while Jigga is always experimenting and expanding his. Jigga is everywhere. He’s even down with the King of Pop. Everybody knows greatness when they see it. What!

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), September 26, 2001.

Outcask AL...I agree that Pac is the best and can't none of these peeps touch him. Just about every hardcore rapper stole something form that man. And don't feed into that Jigga and Nas wifey tape; that's how rumors get started; I doubt if there is such a tape. And to whoever said Eminem is over rated, I agree with that too. He can flow with the best I give you that, but all of his songs about Karl Kaniff and all that nonsense makes his stock go down. Just like Jigga. He got some tight stuff out and I'd say he is in the top 3 right now but his stuff like Girls remix and and Izzo, that's not classic. Do you all think half these people on top would be on top if Pac was still here? Listen to "All Out" from Until the End of Time. When Jigga puts out something like that, let me know. And I'm not even a big fan of the Outlaws, but them boys floooow on there. And they call out Jay and Cash money. It's a little slick how they call out cash money, so I don't know if everyone will catch it, but they say Jay Z's name! What's up now? How come Hova ain't address them? And I never said Nas peaked; I'm just saying if u put out a CD with nothing but excellent songs, you can't match that. Jordan coming back. Y'all want him to win six more? If he just take em' to the playoffs, y'all goin hate, right? Come on now; just listen to my words before you jump to disagree. Qoolout of D.C. Holla P.S. The tightest line in all of this rap beef is Jada's about Beanie- "I got people in Philly, that been where u live/ F--- Scarface, my bullets hit women and kids." LOL

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 26, 2001.

Yeah, but Pavement were never street. Streets were Pavement, but Pavement were never street. Paving stones were street, but Pavement were counter tops and coffee tables and shit. You get too street, you get potholes in your belly. A notebook crook? So what, it's his job, paddywhack paperback gangsta rap. If it's not in the book, no one looks, tree in the forest, no paper, no one sees, no one hears, no once cares. You get too street, slightest tremor, dust in the air, you disintegrate. Speed garage, amphetamine driveway, ritalin street and you think you're it, but no: you're bricks, the bricks crumble into particulate matter.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 27, 2001.

ouch!! pac, the greatest? don't think so. best lyricist? hardly. if this needs to be addressed further, homework needs to be done...for real. illmatic, definately classic. can he put out another classic? doubtful. but damn, try at least!! oh, and uh, didn't keanu reeves have a college course studying his material. and he can't even act.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

much respect Frank!!

-- DonWas (donpaul@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

wut's d fucking big deal of wutever nas,prodigy,jadakiss do say... they're juz jealous of jigga's reign. if dey wana be d king of NY, then prove it assholes! i wud consider jay-z as the king of NY coz he's d 1 hus juz releasing albumz dat go beyond expectations. u jadashit juz dont know how 2 act. nas also. ur a fucking goddamn P.Diddy asshole follower.damn u rappers dat always dedic8 their fucking rap shit wid the departed 1s. wut da hell u r? r u a homo? u think BIG wil kip u up wid ur bullshit records? fuck ur company! damn all dos hu hate ROC... u juz cant compete wid tha muthafuckers of NY. JADASHIT, NAS POTATO, PRODIGY ASS...pieces of trashes of rap. JAY-Z---KING of 21st CENTURY NY!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Zendrine Santos (neo9174074612@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

F it; we just gotta agree to disagree. Pac's the best. You do your homework. I said that 1st Sept. 20 on this site. Now do it. You said the best rapper just put out blueprint? How is Jigga betta when he stole a rack of lines from Pac? What did he steal u ask? 1. "Stick to the script (MOB)" from his Dynasty CD. Stole that line form Pac and made a song about it. 2. "Not a demon, but a rose in the cement." 3. On the takeover, "I sampled your voice, you was using it wrong, you made it a hot line, I made it a hot song" stole that form Pac's hit em up "Yeah we took your beat, you wasn't rocking it right." 4. "If I should die;" got that idea from Pac. "Don't cry my iggas." Pac said "Don't shed a tear/I ain't happy here." Hova remixed it a lil, but us true Pac fans saw it. Come on. How can a man be better than the man he stole it from? I could go on, but do I need to? I said Jigga's in the top 3 right now. Who thinks Jigga would be on top if Pac or B.I.G was here? Don't lie to yourself. And don't fake like he is a thug 24/7. He was in a Mariah video in a hot tub. He got dissed by Pac's boys, recently, RECENTLY, (ALL OUT) but ignored it, but ain't ignore Nas and Mobb. And still givin Pac shoutouts. What is that? You got a case when u say Jay is better than Nas...maybe, but he ain't near Pac. Holla @ me. Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

A. Nas' only "classic" album didn't go gold. B. When mentioning Nas' classic songs, don't forget "Affirmative Action," "Project Window," and "Blaze a 50." C. When showing how Nas HAS NOT stayed street, don't forget the actual song "Nastradamus" and that shit with Mariah Carey D. Funny how you're "commercial" when you're popular. Jay-Z is more of a businessman rapper. He has an ear for what's popular (which is why he only works with hottest producers at the time). I don't particularly agree with his constant switch from streets to pop, but overall it works, so more power to him. E. 2Pac is the greatest rapper ever because of what he has accomplished. All of those who say it's B.I.G, have no case since BIG has 1 pre-mortem album to go on (which wasn't that good in my opinion), and 2 post-mortem (with Born Again not being too impressive). 2Pac had 6 very successful, including the 5 times platinum All Eyez On Me, albums to his name. Plus several post- mortem, multi-platinum albums. He had the biggest impact on rap and his delivery was the best the game had ever seen. Like my boy said, PAC could talk about eatin Fritos and make you feel every word. He had the ability to touch hearts with songs like "Dear Mama," "Life Goes On," Keep Ya Head Up," and so on. Now lyrics are debatable. If you're looking for deep and meaningful, then look at PAC. If you're looking for witty tongue twisters, then BIG stands above the crowd. I love BIG, but people base his greatness solely on his potential. But who's to say he wouldn't have fallen off? It happened to Bone after their first two albums, and no one saw that coming. Who knew they'd go from Thuggish Ruggish Bone to If I Could Teach The World? I didn't. But they fell real hard. And the same COULD have happened to BIG. I find it unlikely, but possible. But Pac actually made multiple hot albums, collabos, appearances, and videos, before and after death. Plus, the majority of the hip-hop world sides with Pac, so you have to give him the nod for now. E. Speaking of BIG and PAC, was the song "Holla At Me" off of A.E.O.M. (disc2) about BIG or was it a general song? F. I think BIG's best song is "Kick In The Door" and I think the hottest line he ever spit was on "I Got A Story To Tell" - SO I'M LIKE BITCH YOU BETTER TALK TO HIM, FOR THE FIFTH PUT A SPARK THROUGH HIM, FUCK AROUND SHIT GET DARK TO HIM, PUT A PART THROUGH HIM, LOSE A MAJOR PART TO HIM - ARM, LEG... That shit is so clean! What y'all think? G. For that guy ridin Fabolous' nuts - Fabolous is extremely average. H. That's it y'all. I'm out da kitchen. Peace.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), September 27, 2001.

And another thing, I can't believe people point to the fact that Eminem is white to be the reason for his success. There are three, not just one, factors for Eminem's success... 1) he is white (the white 2Pac?????) and of course white adolescent males will put him at the top of the charts...but can Eminem control who buys his records, and puts him in their magazine? Don't hate Eminem, hate the dickriders... 2) Eminem is produced by arguably the greatest producer (i.e. Dr. Dre) rap has ever known (even though I like Timbaland's beats more). Plus he hangs with raps two biggest icons - Snoop and Dre... 3) This is the most important factor - Eminem has mad skills. The white boy is undeniably tight. Black, white, alien from Venus, he comes up with some of the tightest shit - even if he raps about fat lesbian ass being eaten by dead mammals' ghosts from the pits of hell. He can also produce (he's produced many of his songs) as seen on Jay-Z's "Renegade" where he also raps better than Jay does. And you can't tell me that his verse on Dead Wrong with BIG wasn't just as tight (maybe more) as BIG's two verses. To deny Eminem's talent is to do exactly what black rappers love to rhyme about - hate. If Eminem was Black, if Eminem was this, that, yadda, yadda, yadda, blah, blah, blah... None of that matters because Eminem IS white, and regardless, he is better than the great majority of Black rappers. Just because we started hip hop doesn't mean we are guaranteed to be better than all the other races. I give any rapper their due based on the music they put their name to. Fuck race, age, region, background, etc. If your shit is hot, then it's hot. And Eminem is the hottest. Hot as Jay and hotter than "I'm real good, but my albums don't reflect it" Nas. And he could hold his own with BIG and PAC. I guarantee it. So please, put down the proverbial Haterade, and kill all that Great White Hype nonsense.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), September 27, 2001.

Sorry, last thing... Eminem would EAT JADAKISS ALIVE. No contest. Not too many MCs could battle with Em, and two are dead. Jay, DMX, maybe Nas, maybe Beans are the only ones with a chance in hell.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), September 27, 2001.

I think…let me correct myself, I KNOW if 2Pac was still around, (in the physical) 3/4 of these rappers wouldn’t be brave enough to spit all that “thug-life is mine” crap.

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

Yo. have you ever noticed that no one in any artform is considered great until they are dead? If Tupac was still alive he would by no means be considered the greatest of all time so stop hoppin on is dick. I like alot of his joints and own a few of his albums but duke does not have lyrical prowess the be considered great. Biggie i'm a big fan but i can help but feel the same way if they were both alive neither would be called the greatest of all time. As far as nas and jigga are concerned. Its kinda narrow minded to call an artist that gets in the mainstream pop or a sellout, because they've reached worldwide recognition, because that's what EVERY hiphop artist is strugglin' for. As far as jay'z being on this bling-bling shit first of all if you peep his first album that nigga came out gate talkin' about money and the finer things in life so its not like its a new occurence he's always been doing that, and that is part of his style and that arrogance he has is what makes duke stick out. As a matter of fact everyone has coming out trying to be a fuckin thug until jigga came out talkin' about money and rocking ice and platinum, now (and check what i'm saying) everyone is on the platinum $ ice shit thinka bout it i would say that would make jay'z an innovator. As far as nas is concerned His first couple of albums were tight then when he got on this Firm shit he was trying to be a fuckin' gambino and fans didn't respond a so he fell off and after that the next couple of albums just weren't tight. Bottom line NAS needs to go back to the drawing board cause if he doesn't he'll fall completely off and go the way of afrikan bambatta, the juice crew and sugar hill gang...a pleasant memory. Oh yeah who the fuck keeps bringing up Rakim and being the greatest....come on we forget that wackass "The 18th letter album" and "Don't sweat the technique".. There's a reason he hasn't been out in years, duke just doesn't have it anymore.

-- trgdy (trgdy@yahoo.com), September 27, 2001.

who's that fag hatin on ra,dont you know that nigga got extreme lyrical respect.l respect a rapper who can do a whole album without talking the usual gangster rhetoric,lam a thug,bitches want me,l tote teks,l smoke blunts lam iced out.lam the best.l can talk shit and you cant touch me.thats the real reason lauryn hill was so nice.ra is who jay copied the name "the god "from, how about some originality.ra is on a whole new level and if you listened to the 18th letter you'll know ra has far much more depth and weight than yo average jigger or nas.that nigger is for the mature mind,not for people to take lightly or to bounce to in club.

-- wizard (whitneym89@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

If nothing else 'Pac was an poet, innovator, entertainer and creative businessman. Despite all his "thug life" proclamations and gangsta mentality, Tupac was neither a thug or a gangster. Intelligent, thoughtful and introspective, yes, but a hardcore gangster, no. He created that persona to sell records and to create an aura (remember he was a talented actor as well). Of course, getting shot in the head and doing time in jail enhanced his reputation and substantiated all his thug life posturing. Unfortunately it also made him antagonistic, paranoid and fiercely defensive. His best work usually came out when he just wrote from the heart, as opposed to his Death- Row/MOB/Thug Life stuff. Don't get me wrong, I still listen to that shit, because I love 'Pac and all of his work, regardless of what he is saying. His coherent confident delievery, dope beats and lyrical command are unparalleled. But a lot of folks never grasp the essence of Tupac because they get caught up in his whole charade as strictly a bad ass thug. Listen to the "Me Against the World" album. Look at the pictures on the insert. It's just Tupac, wearing glasses looking humbled, mature and thoughtful. No "West-Side" hand gestures. No S500, No excessive jewelery and no "posse". Tracks like "It Ain't Easy", "So Many Tears", "Temptations" and "Lord Knows" reflect the real Tupac Shakur, jaded, confused, angry, and remorseful,. Early work like "Brenda's Got a Baby" and "Trapped" are brilliant works as well. Fortunately, 'Pac left an enduring legacy for today's hip-hop generation. Many rappers are trying to emulate him. Unfortunately, too many of today's rappers are emulating the wrong side of Tupac.

-- M. Riv (silly6370@yahoo.com), September 27, 2001.

if that nigga mase came back hed reclaim his spot, he was by far the hardest niggga out with his first lp. yall think he was pop, what the fuck were 24 hours to livwe then? that shit was gutter, he had shit with big, the lox etc. he was very underrated, people need to give him his props and stop hating. as far as master p, hes not the best like some people have said, but hes up there, hes kinda fallen off. but u gotta admit u liked make em say unghhhh. and how you do dat there. ei

-- murdamase (matt78777@aol.com), September 27, 2001.

I went to buy the DMX tuesday and it wasn't there. I asked one of the hip hop clerks and he said it got pushed back cause Jay-Z had it locked. How's that for power. He can't be stopped. Let's see corny ass "thug life is mine" Nas do that.

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

In response to the ignorant person who called me a fag 'cause Rakim's the 18th letter sucked.........You are saying i'm a homosexual because Rakim's 18th letter album sucked. Hmmm very interesting, no wonder you liked his album your as is just as wack that album beee- ytch

-- trgdy (trgdy@yahoo.com), September 27, 2001.

Apparently this congression are filled with simpletons and imbeciles. I'm possibly the most educated and intellectual responser of all. A few of you need a spellchecker and editer. Now averted to the topic. Jay-z is nothing but a futile rapper, the "crap" he produces is absolutely ridiculous.

The society that believes his "spit" are concrete minded individuals. The best "battle" rappers are Eminem, Nas, Tupac and Biggie. Eminem and Nas would humiliate Jay-Z and ROC-a-fellah members in any aspect of the "Game". Beanie Siegel completely owned Jadakiss, but everyone knows that he's not pulling that on Nas.

I also strongly believe that Nelly, Petey Pablo, Coo Cal, P.Diddy are on top of Jay-z. Open the visual spheres, Jay-hova is Jay-HOMO.

-- Lou (The 14 year old) (mailto:negative%20syntax@aol.com), September 27, 2001.

WOW ... some of y'all really are adamant 'bout your shit. Check it ... the whole rap game is based on sampling ... since way back, hip hop has sampled jazz, funk, soul, and other hip hop. How are people up in this joint gon hate on rappers who use other rappers' words or ideas and put a new spin on it? That's what all rappers do. Check yourselves. 2pac the greatest ... arguably he is. The cat who be screaming about the G.O.A.T title is only given to dead people ... come on. Heads were claiming Big and Pac were the greatest while they were alive. And, you can't hate on BIGGIE because he died before putting out 5 or 6 LPs. You gon crazy. Big was eating when he was alive. And, his 2 post-death albums were excellent. He flowed better back then than the majority of the cats in the game now. And, who was saying Pac wasn't gansta????? Getting shot nine times, being up in jail, and running with cats like Suge Knight makes you soft? Get a clue.

Again, Jay-Z has pop appeal. He has thug appeal. He has collabos with the dirty south, the west coast, pop artists, anyone who's down. Don't hate a nigga cuz he's a Renaissance man. His versatility from "Nigga Who" with Jaz-0 to "Girl's Best Friend" with the sample of the James Brown "Nightrain" to "Big Pimpin" with UGK and Timbaland to some of the bullshit with "Mariah Carey" ... all that shows his versatility as a lyricist, rapper, artist, producer, and musician as a whole. His hustle to go reach everyone. He didn't go suburb. He brought suburbia to the ghetto.

I'd have a lot more respect for Nas if he didn't try to be so gangsta after he saw how niggaz were making loot by going MTV style. He switched styles like a little bitch. Did "You Owe Me" with Ginuine. Got the Destiny's Child teens in the video to make the 14 year old girls watch. He was the "Hot Boy" for Missy Elliot and wasn't even the one she was rapping about. Bottom line: HE SOLD OUT. He had to step to Jay-Z so heads would notice him again. Yeah, he's a great poet and lyricist, but that don't change the fact he sold out. If you gon claim to be thuggish ruggish, stick to your damn guns. Someone already noted that Jay-Z was all about the diamond clusters and cristal since album uno. While Jay-Z has grown as an artist and entertainer, Nas is switching up styles so he can get recognition.

I don't know. Y'all can argue til your ears bleed, but 2Pac and BIG were the two greatest. Who knows who's better? BIG never got the chance to have the longevity like 2Pac. And, Pac has some mediocre songs, even though most of his joints are blazing.

Holla,

A.Sol

-- A.Sol (deo_sol14@excite.com), September 27, 2001.

congression? hhmmmm. i think there is an age limit in here and you're obviously under. come back when you're 15.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

pac, love him to death. i think for many to try to understand the black youth of his era, they could very well look to him. i loved him when he first came out. he spoke of the hard times of black society, touched on the many cultural issues, controversial issues. he was extremely intelligent, and outspoken. though respected back then, he was not looked at as the 2nd coming of christ or anything. he was not mentioned in anyones top ten lyricist list back then. but pac was young and still growing. his changes in growth were reflected in his music, and his outspokeness in the media. did pac become a better lyricist in time. i don't really think so. but his subject matter changed. when he spoke of 'brenda's baby', we felt him. when he holla'd 'when my homies call', niggas was definately hollerin back. but when he went all out with 'thug life til i die', he attracted a whole legion of fans who were primed for that type of life back then. it was perfect timing. i don't think his lyrical prowess is what make him great. his lyrical ability i don't believe changed that much(he was always very skilled in that dept.), but i think that it's the changes in the man that placed him on top. he put his life before us in his music, and the media, and we felt every bit of it. his impact? better than no other. his lyrical skill? though good, is not great.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

M. Riv, sorry to say say but you're full of crap. OUTKAST, OUTLAW.

-- Alex Fortuna (alex42na@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

Eat a dick Fortuna. Alex is a fag's name.

-- M. Riv (silly6370@yahoo.com), September 28, 2001.

Riv, chill-out. I could go to your level and say “takes one to know one” but I won’t stoop. I said you’re stupid because your claiming in your statement that Pac was never a thug and he created that whole image because he was a poet and smart and this and that. I don’t know what your meaning of thug is to you but it doesn’t mean you can’t be talented, smart or a poet. Your surroundings where you live and environment at home make you who you are. Better yet, when you have time and the money, you should get all his Cd’s and documentaries, sit with a notebook and some Starbucks coffee and just listen to everything he ever wrote from beginning to end and you will see what we are already know. Idiot.

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), September 28, 2001.

(LOL I see peeps got beef up in here. And that's suppose to be the topic. Well, just keep it on the PC; don't take it to the streets.) First, I'm not the best speller, but Lou if you gonna call peeps out for there editing skills, try to spell "editor" correctly. And I felt what you were saying for a quick second, but then you said Nelly and some others I never even heard of, are above Jigga. I'm not the biggest Hov fan but come on. I may cite how the Outlaws punked him when they said "To my real iggaz stuck in the street game/Cause rappers like Jay-Z be pumpin' Kool-Aid through they veins/ Is it true what I'm sayin'?/ Slap your soft azz to the floor/And watch my fo-fo put peek holes through your door. I may laugh at those lines, but at the same time I will say Jay can flow. Second, to the person who said "all rappers copy," that's not true. And if it were, I'd say at least don't be so blatant about it. But I'm glad you acknowledge the fact that Jigga has copied. That was my point and he copied of the same man. Third, to the person who made a true point that made me think. You are right about how Bone kinda fell off and we really don't know if BIG would have because we only saw two CDs that he put together, so I feel you, good point. However, I gotta disagree about Eminem bringing it to Jada. Naw, did you hear what Jada said 2 Beans? He won with that one line, "I got people in Philly that been where you live/ F--- Scarface my bullets hit women and kids." Okay he ain't win with just that but as you can see, that's a tight phrase to spit. And remember, we have yet to see Em go at a real rapper yet. He is messing with the boy bands and pop stars; but I believe that would be a nice battle. Nevertheless, my money is on "J to the izzA D to the izzA, y'all is puz, don't want no gun plizz-ay" He said that to Beans too. And One more thing. Since we are talking about great rappers, I gotta say Scarface. I haven't felt him in a while, but he has put some meaninful work into this rap game. Holla, Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 28, 2001.

ok, this one has been run into the ground. let's get on to something else. who's the best rap group of all time? who's the best right now?

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 29, 2001.

Best group of all time is EPMD. It could have been NWA, but they had problems as most groups do. Or you can take RUN-DMC just for what they did for hip-hop overall. As for the greatest rapper of all time I think people gave BIG that title prematurely. He is great, but did not have a chance to fulfil that title. LL first, followed by KRS One and then Jay-Z who will overtake them all. Longevity should count when making that determination. Don't count out Big Daddy Kane. Has anyone ever dissed him?

-- Lucious Martin (medumsxxy@aol.com), September 29, 2001.

NAS IS DA POET....BUT I AINT FEELIN HIM....JAY Z IS COO....BUT I AINT REALLIE FEELIN HIM EITHER...SO FUCK THOSE 2 NIGGAZ......ITS ALL BOUT 2PAC MUTHAFUCKAZ!!!!

-- J A (I2e13elde@cs.com), September 29, 2001.

best group af all time? maybe tribe. today? outkast i think. i need some input, i may be wrong.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), September 29, 2001.

best grupes is the st lunatics, kris kross and the lox cuz old school gotta keep it fa sho tho if you understand

-- matt (matt78777@aol.com), September 29, 2001.

yo i think Jay and nas are good rappers but i think hova is better because we really have not heard from nas in a minute.

-- (RobertEman@aol.com), September 29, 2001.

yo i think Jay and nas are good rappers but i think hova is better because we really have not heard from nas in a minute.

Holla,

Big Kenny

-- (RobertEman@aol.com), September 29, 2001.

i think we argued almost every point there is with jay-z and nas. okay ... so we've moved on, huh? group ... or duo?

i wouldn't argue with EPMD, but i can't say the best of all time with certainty. as with jay-z and nas, there are so many considerations: quality of music, lyricism, beats, longevity, commercial success, underground respect, innovation. you gotta look at Wu-Tang. they started everything with "Wu-Tang Clan ain't nothin to fuck wit." they're the first group that continually put out solo projects while staying committed to the group. they brought r&b to the rugged. on any given track, they would have different emceez bringing down with different styles. just peep that "RZA hits" album, and you see how great their songs are, from "brooklyn zoo" to "you're all i need to get by" to "liquid swords" to "CREAM." but, then you look at the fugees with "the score" and with the unbelievable production of that album, lauryn hill's versatility, unconventional beats like the one on "Beast," and rappers that sing. "blunted on reality" is also a great album people overlook, with joints like "the temple" and "vocab." but, how about trend-setters like Diggable Planets who brought classic jazz to hip hop? their second release "Blowout Comb" is a very underrated album. but, as my observant colleague has already mentioned, A Tribe Called Quest for so many years were the fathers of modern hip hop, incorporating jazz beats and rock sounds to their music, a bonafide dj, and two exceptional lyricists. check their resume. who doesn't remember the "scenerio" remix with the Leaders of New School and a young Bus-a-bus?

obvious props go to the forefathers: NWA, Public Enemy, Run DMC, and the Beasties. True pioneers of their time, unwavering in their dedication to create a truly new art form, and just good music.

one,

A.Sol

-- A.Sol (deo_sol14@excite.com), September 30, 2001.

if this whole thing started off of jay calling proclaiming himself teh king of ny, then i dont know why everyone is making such a big deal about it. yes. biggie was and still is the best rapper ever, and when he once graced the mic, he then was the king of ny, but now that the king has fallen then some how the dynast must continue. and jay z is the well deserved heir to the throne. dont get me wrong though, nas is a very tallented poet, perhaps the next lyrically inclined version of the late great tupac shakur. but in any event, nas really has to take it easy and learn to live with the fact that jay z is the new phenomenon.

one bony

-- bony (caleb642@yahoo.com), September 30, 2001.

How can a man be better than the man he stole it from?

Property is theft.

I'm real good, but my albums don't reflect it.

Wagner's music is better than it sounds.

I'm possibly the most educated and intellectual responser of all. A few of you need a spellchecker and editer.

This is utter genius. I wish I'd written it.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 30, 2001.

By the way, what's Rammelzee doing these days?

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), September 30, 2001.

I was goin to leave it alone, but I gotta holla at Frank right quick. "Property is theft"? Huh? So if I kidnap your son does that make him my son? Nope. I know "Property is theft" sounded nice when you typed it, but that doesn't make it true. A man can't take something, and thus have whatever is attached to it (Greatness). Think about that one. And while we are on biting...I already pointed out Lou's "editer." As for the new topic, best group...I know many may disagree, but the Geto Boys had their time. I'm not a huge fan of the South, but the first few CD's they put out were hot. I can't lie. And that one with Big Mike, it had like 6 or 7 singles. Let me know what y'all think. Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), September 30, 2001.

I have to agree with Lou about the simpeltons in the room. Ya'll niggas need to calm down. But for real, I need to make a couple of pints: First, All ya'll trippin over on the Nas Diss song by Jay Z ( The takeover). That shit was alright, but that was nuthin compared to the Nas diss song called Thun & Kicko by Cormega and Prodigy!!!!! I think somebody quoted the line from the song earlier. Go back up and read that shit, then you'll see what I'm talking about. Third, all this talk about the best MC has been goin on but no where have I seen one of the nicest MC to ever touch the mic come up. For those who don't no, his name is Can-I-Bus. For anybody to say he is not the sickest, illesst MC to touch he mic would be a complete fool!!!! Just read this line : My spit is so cold, It'll turn to iclicles in mid-air adn slit your throat. And Lastly, that bitch nigga dissin Rakin needs to go back home and listen to his NSync Cd. Tis room is for real hiphop heads. If he has any hip-hop know how, he wouldn't even form finger to type up that bullshit. PEACE

One

-- Bwrecks (biruke@hotmail.com), September 30, 2001.

listen to all ya fake ass dumb niggas listen Jay-Z Is Nie Nas Is Nice but the album GheTtO FaBolOus is better than the blueprints, first of all jay-z has done better than that comon look at hard knock life that whole album is sick ya niggas need to stop hating on my son Fab because the nigga is nasty. Yeah i know he spells his name out too much but think about Jay-z always saying "Jigga" Its The R.o.C" or Roafella ya'll' spelling out his name is fabolous's trademark its what makes him, him thats what he does nobody hates on jay-z for always saying that so ya need to just cop that Fab listen to it and realize my son is better than Hova HoLLa Back At that cuz ya cant deny it.

-- FaBoLoUs SpOrT (fabolous1133@aol.com), October 01, 2001.

Tis room is for tearing up my heart into treads, heads. My room tis of tee.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), October 01, 2001.

And you know you all are allowed to go to other threads, if you want, like this one about producers.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), October 01, 2001.

The best group rappers were KRISS KROSS. A

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), October 01, 2001.

The best group rappers were KRISS KROSS. Anybody agree?

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), October 01, 2001.

JUST KIDDING. THE BEST RAP DUO RIGHT NOW I THINK IS M.O.P. HOLLA!

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), October 01, 2001.

yo, alex. i gotta agree with mriv on his comments about tupac. tupac spent his early years in baltimore and attended a school for performing arts. after moving to oakland, he hooked with the digital underground and was dancer with the group for crissakes. all his early shit was straight up ghetto poetry and social commentary; more like early nas. yo alex, just because a man is poor, black and livin' in the ghetto, doesn't mean he's a thug. i was born and raised on the south side of chicago and seen a lot of crazy shit. i ain't no thug. but i can be, and i certainly can walk into your little suburban mall and act like one. pac was an intelligent man who used his background to appeal to shallow suburban dudes like you who desparately want to believe that 'pac was some sort of gangbanger who hung out on front porches drinkin' fortys and plotting drive by's. it's a business, fortuna, and evidently you bought into it.

-- Djenkins (DREAL@EXCITE.COM), October 01, 2001.

Nas's Illmatic better than jay-z can ever do. Nas sold out and so did Jay, Jay was just much better at it. Nas sucks right now, but you know he's got the better ability at true hip-hop than Jay. Jay's got the serious skill at making good crossover hip hop that appeals to everybody, like biggie did, thats why he outsells everybody, but jay still raps way too much about the bling shit that we dont got!! (blueprint shows he's maturing though). So when it comes down to it, we're arguing separate things. I dont understand how anyone can say Jay-z is that great of a lyricist, his rhymes are aiight, but he is entertaining. when it comes to serious lyric quality, look at old nas shit, eminem, and jada (not including the solo, i was dissapointed)

-- hip hop fan (gazellefunk@hotmail.com), October 01, 2001.

sales mean nothing, nelly outsales everyone. he sold 7 mil with his first cd

-- matt (matt78777@aol.com), October 01, 2001.

so jay-z is startin to mature coz he is now singing heartfelt shit and less of the bling bling and violence,how old was pac when he started rapping that sort of shit,and how old is jay...? do your maths,then you'll know how far behind pac these so called dons are.

-- wizard (wizard@hotmail.com), October 02, 2001.

First, let me laugh at you young buck. Djenkins, I’m 31 years old kid. All these cats that you hearin on the radio makin platiums albums kid are all my age kid. I grew up with them kid. What you know about rap kid. What you know about where I live, kid? What thugs can’t dance? What thugs can’t be smart M Riv? Let me tell you something. I also represent thug life and also have talents you’ll never understand till you see me, but yet my situatuins at home and my friends that where in the same struggle of being held back, made me be out there thuggin and doing things that would classify me as a thug. I’m not fakin it, it’s real. Pac was there to show us we were not alone. I guess you had a good home too huh Djenkins. You had two strong parents who set you in the right direction and had your back at all times huh? I guess your neighborhood and school were real cool too huh? Yeah this whole rap shit is a business now. But it’s not by minorities kid, it’s ran by the other man that see us with the marketing potential to make a dollar and us to make ourselves be heard and make some money while we at it. And it’s up to us to know and feel what’s real or not, (ex.Remember your idol Vanilla Ice) Pac was one the realest. Suburban dude, yeah right, why you trying me like that kid. Peace.

-- OUTKAST AL (alex42na@hotmail.com), October 02, 2001.

it is not really a answer it is a statement hova can't be stopped nether can the roc as a whole nas a hater kiss a hater prodigty a hater this cat hated on pac for no reason when he was alive.

-- Artis Rivers (prettieboy02@aol.com), October 02, 2001.

Imbeciles, feeble-minded, simpletons, and incompetent individuals please edit your missives before you deliver them to the board. It's actually embarrassing to read your retorts and replies. Jay-Z allied with Eminem in "Renegade" in order to have an available battler to assist him on the bashing of other rappers. Eminem's ability to expose the lyrics are definitely superior to that of Jay-Z's. I personally believe that the only song that's excellent on that Blueprint is "Renegade", and the only reason it's excellent is because of Eminem. Roc-a-fellah is pathetic, thus roc-a-wear is pitiful. Please "cats" get a new wear, perhaps something worth more.

Anti-Jay-z Society. :)

-Lou (Bronx, NY, 14 years old)

-- Lou, Delivering the truth. (negativesyntax@aol.com), October 02, 2001.

We hate all of 'em newbie U.S. rappers over here in Europe. No matter if Jay-Z or anyone else. Run your i-mesh and check out: "Looptroop- long arm of the law" or: "Square One", "KC da Rookie" "Torch", "Shine2, "Denmarks finest", or if you wanna stay on your side of the world: "Dilated peoples", "Rasco", "Brand Nubian", "Berrington Levi", "AZ", "Mob deep", Phife Dawg".

~ Babu- checkt alles: http://www.eimsbush.de http://www.buback.de http://www.showdown.de http://www.dalooptroop.cjb.net

-- Babu (gaertner@kleinepflanze.de), October 02, 2001.

Lou-da-14-year-old, you have a nice thesaurus/dictionary. Or, your junior high has a good "word of the day" program. Chill out, son. This is an internet forum, not the international spelling bee championships.

Much love to all. Hip hop has become a great arena for thoughtful discussions and debate. Y'all heard Mos Def is fucking around with real rock-n-roll, right? He got two of the musicians from Living Colour, one of the guitarists from Bad Brains, and some dude from P- Funk. He's evolving this game, merging rock styles, and not like that Limp Boner shit. Evolution. That's what makes good hip hoppers great. That's what made Pac great. Nas de-evolved. And, Jay-Z hasn't evolved as much as I would have hoped. But, Jay-Z still puts out the diggs. And, if anything, he is a musical mind not to be fucked with.

One,

A.Sol

-- A.Sol (deo_sol14@excite.com), October 02, 2001.

I just heard that All Out from 2pac's last one with the Outlawz. Pac came pretty tight, not so much lyrically, but with his infectous flow. As for the Jay-z diss, it was typical of West Coast thug-type rappers, instead of trying some clever disses, just went with the typical, he's a pussy so I'm going to kill him. I don't blame jay for ignoring that. Nas came at him with some real "battle" lyrics that deserved an answer and got one on Takeover (nigga sampled the Doors, real hot.) But don't sleep, Nas is mad tight and can deliver when he REALLY wants too.

Now for my local plug, check out that new Tech N9ne representing KC, Anghellic. Personally, I thought the first 1/3 of the lp was kinda hurt, but the rest was banging.

-- Big Steve (rowe@mizzou.edu), October 02, 2001.

Yo Frank White once said "Whats beef, beef is when your moms ain't safe up in streets". And I will tell one ting Jigga's moms definetly aint safe up in the streets, cause he got another thing coming to him messing around with the Queensbridge like dat. Nas has been keeping real since day one, not like Jay Z firing out all that commercial shit that us real hip hop peeps aint down wit. So fuck Jigga

-- Ldotsfinest (tplaza@uwo.com), October 03, 2001.

I understand your point Steve, but I still disagree. If Jigga gonna call out Nas and cuz from Mobb Deep, then he needs to address the others too. I don't even no why he came at Mobb, what did they do to him? If they deserved it, then the Outlaws should have got it too; when Pac was alive, he should have got it too. Even the true die hard Jay-Z fans have to admit that he punked out right there. If everyone is dissing you, you gotta leave them all alone or go at all of them. Give them half a bar and some more....I'm a Jay-Z fan, but he punked out.

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001.

all i can say is jay z won this one in my mind. i didn't even know what was going on when i first heard his song, but i just knew he ripped it. i had to do my research and even knowing what everyone else said jay still got it. i can't stand to hear people say that all he talks about is money and hoes cause those be the joints on the radio and if people start judging rappers solely on radio joints, everybody practically sucks (to me at least). the tight thing about jay z is he put's it out there and he don't fake. calling mobb deep ballerinas and showing pics...damn! and about what he said about nas i gotta agree. nas is a poet but i got every cd he put out on blind faith after illmatic and he disappointed me. i feel like jay told it like it was outta 4 cds ill was the best one was okay and the other two sucked. but he didn't fake & try to claim everything nas put out was trash cause then i couldn't agree... so basically jay has my respect. i f*cks with jadakiss though and i only have beanie's first cd but that wasn't as good as i'd hoped, so oh well. all i can say is nas can rap when he feels like itbut he ain't that business savy and jay z CAN RAP as well and he's business savy. and ain't that what it's all about?

-- maria (mzmaria18@aol.com), October 03, 2001.

Jay has so many hova-haters he can't spend his time addressing every single one of them, personally, I feel that most of the outlawz work is 2 steps from being garbage and they are only hanging off pac's legacy. Nas v. Jay has something worth writing, I don't know what all the mess is with Mobb Deep, but again, talent wise, they are worthy of a return from someone like Hov. If he answers the outlawz, than he has to answer everyone, and just some of the underground stuff I hear shows he has way too many enemies to go after, it would take a whole lp.

-- Big Steve (rowe@mizzou.edu), October 03, 2001.

This is out of control. If anyone needs an answer to who is the best lyracist of all time. Just listen to the radio.. You will hear his lyrics, samples, beats, chorus' rhyms and what ever else an artist uses in a song. Im talking about NOTORIOUS. Every artist dropping full lengths or singles uses something from BIGGIE. May it be suttle line chorus or an entire verse he is given love by every artist whether east coast or west coast. I AM NOT A HATER AT ALL, NOR DO I HAVE THE CREDENTIALS TO ACT LIKE ONE, im just stating what I hear on the radio and everybody's cd's.

-- fill more (fillmore@yahoo.com), October 03, 2001.

I'm upset that no one here has called me a homo. My wrist is more flexible than anyone's on this board.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), October 03, 2001.

If I thought Jay selected not to address the outlawz because he didn't have the time, then I'd say "okay." However, that wasn't it (in my opinion). Now I know I may be wrong, but I feel that it was just a "punk" move. Who else is beefing with Jay? It's not a lot or like it's the whole east coast; it's not too many. They called him out on hit em' up when Pac was alive, and Jigga said nothing; that new song (All Out) isn't the first time they dissed him and won't be the last. Even if they are weak right now, you gotta give em there dues for that Makaveli CD. They flowed on like 50% of the tracks. So I don't buy that about them not being big enough for him to address. Everybody and there mama got Makaveli, they know who the outlawz are; and even if they don't Jay can still step to em. Remember when Pac called out Chino XL? That was the 1st time I had heard of Chino. Pac ain't care if cuz was underground or not; he dissed Pac and Pac came back at him. Bottom line is if a man call you out on a Multi- Platinum cd, (any Pac cd)then they are known. They are known enough for you to bring it to them like they took it to you and like you took it to Nas and Mobb Deep. Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001.

2 pac is absolutely the greatest rapper, emcee, entertainer what ever you want to call it of all time. he style was so versatile, he put out joints that everyone could relate to from the west, the east, down south, midwest no matter what the location is. and for all yall cats that is talking about he is not lyrically great or his delivery on some joints are weak, keep it real. this nigga even after dre left death row was spitting some ill shit on some wack azz beats produced by suge k. check out makaveli and until the end of time "i was raised by thugs, schooled by killas, learned my mathematical skills from real drug dealers..." come on now listen to this cat. pac could have made a whole lp without any beats and just laced rhymes and niggaz still would have been feeling it. even mos def said this niggaz talent can't be matched, just present this nigga with a important topic and he can assemble a whole lp on that topic and trust me it will go PLATINUM. also, niggaz out now is trying to copy my niggaz style, lyric wise and appearance wise. i got much respect for nas but pac gave it to him on an undergroud track "wuz up wit this nigga nas tryin to ride like THE, wit yo false gangsta ways you aint take five like me"! pac also gave birth to this whole thug persona niggaz try portray: JA RULE, LIL WAYNE, C MURDER, DMX the list goes on. one last comment all this open beefing now between niggaz was established by pac believe it or not because before him niggaz made comments on other emcees, but never had the nuts to say the names, but on hit em up and hit em up 2 pac unleashed fury on all the notch eastcoast cats and didn't sugar coat it. just realize this nigga was and still is today the real deal.

-- The Best (Nchekwube@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001.

first off, lou youre a fag. second, did yall hear that boy nellys new jam number 1. he went after jay z on that song, if u aint get it then u aint get it. he said" i am number one, 2 is not a winner and three nobody remembers" Hes talkin bout jigga, cuz jigga sold 2nd most. basically nelly said jigga aint shit and jigga still aint respond. Then he went at mobb deep when he said" man im tired of people judging whats real hip hop, be the same mothafuckas who album flop" in reference to tha song quiet storm. "cuz its the real...hip hop, hip hop. Well nelly is puttin it down like a hefty bad and a soda. im out.

-- matt (matt78777@aol.com), October 03, 2001.

Everyone in the world is repping hove right now and fair comment money's hot but come on, brothers given me personally about three traks per album since his first two and that straight is not value for money, o.k i probably got everyone saying ' but the brothers moving units' my answer to that is your right but the argument is not about sales it's about battle raps one of the original art forms in hip hop now all the artists which are involved in battles with jay are making a hip hop fiend like me sit up and listen again come on now the artist that are involved ( prodigy of mobb, nas, beanie, memphis, jada,etc)are all ahead of ther game and to me all appeare to be trying to not let there borough's be shitted on by nobody which i respect plus any of us in tv land couldnt battle any of these m.c's anyway so lets sit back and enjoy the secret wars mega issue in hip hop today ,we have all said mc such and such is nicer than my man now this is a reality lets let it play out hopefully on long play without no extra clips...

p.s pac once put out a flare against mobb deep. pac was supposed to be the greatest m.c that ever lived.

-- joey da negro (j_bacchus@hotmail.com), October 04, 2001.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SHUT UP. Now we're dragging Nelly into this? What is going on here?

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), October 04, 2001.

Well technically Matt, By Your logic Nelly would be dissing himself as well, considering the fact that Eminem was number 1 in sales, not Nelly. But your conclusion was pretty much unfounded to begin with.

-- Big Steve (rowe@mizzou.edu), October 05, 2001.

For everybody sayin all this shit about 'Hova won this round Kiss won this round...' etc, your wack. Keep it on wax? shut up what you listenin to these rappers evry cd "im hard dont fuck wit me im a drug kingpin im a hustla etc." back it up or shut the fuck up. If u say u gangsta then be a gangsta. Whos gonna put out these cds make millions of $ then turn bitch and start writin disses. I know it's buisness but if no shit comes from this all these nigas is fake ok.

Finally since it's a buisness ya cant blame them on the other hand for makin some teny bopper mtv shit. Why not? If u struggled ur whole life u a true thug u werent shit and some label exec comes with millions of $ if you put out some club shit which of u is gonna say "well i betta not cause the real niggas aint gonna feel me no more". Then THEY AINT REAL! whats real is makin the best of yourself not givin a fuck and doin ur thing. Ya cant blame Nas this guy drops a true CLASSIC Illmatic and (barely) goes gold and sees some1 else in a video dancin around goin multiple times platinum. Anybody in here seriously: who wouldnt go do a song with Ginuwine Sisqo Destinys Child. WHOEVER! and make some $ who give a fuck you bein true to urself and ur hood u give a fuck what some forum mfuckas like all us here is doin.

PS- And that kid lou is staright a dickrider.

-- j sidway (js51138@yahoo.com), October 05, 2001.

Listen amateurs...When Rappers drop their first album..most cases it's usually hot...got they put all their heart, soul and street knowledge into it. After they have made it, they usually make it more commercial and radio friendly to make the dough..having lyrics is one thing..but being able to capitalize and make money is another thing..and that's all jay-z is doing..Nas tried it and it flopped as u can see in Nastradamus..Only a few rappers can keep it gutter and still make money, for example biggie and 2pac..nas smokes too much weed and so he's losing brain cells and he need to lay it up..spend a month or so in the streets...feel that fire that he had when he just started and blaze again..When you already have all you ever wanted money, fame, girls...you start to slack...Pac is the only i've seen taht don't get caught up in dat shit...holla at me youngbucks

-- (rm35924@aol.com), October 05, 2001.

Don't be a fool cuz. Of course they gonna keep it on the wax. You think these rappers gonna trade in all their money and freedom for jail? None of us (except you) expect Jay to really step to Nas with an actual gun. None of us believe that Jada will have Beanie popped. Dogg, they are selling records, giving us what we want. If you want some gun play then YOU start some gun play. Then you turn around in your second paragraph and contradict the first one. Duh. I can't even believe I'm addressing this nonsense. Second, on another note....peep the rappers who can't touch their 1st cd......DMX, Bone (maybe), Ice Cube, Scarface (his early stuff),Puff, and Snoop. Anybody else? So don't just bring it to Nas. Holla. Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 06, 2001.

yo i didnt say i expect jigga to bring some gunplay into it. I doubt hes even touched a gun in atleast 10 years. My point was not that they should do that, we obviously dont need another tragedy like pac and biggie. But at the same time it sounds like you are sayin you KNOW theyre all fake and wont do nothin and we all fallin for the shit. I dont fall for it.

I know Prodigy especially needs to do somethin or he aint gonna be makin no $ after that balerina shit at summerjam.sta and I know jigga isnt. Noone needs to die but something bigger than "Fuck you!" "no fuck you!" "oh yeah well you a bitch!" needs to go down for anybody involved in this to have anymore cred. For example Cormeaga fucked Nature up in a fight in QB a few years ago and that jus shut down Natures cred and took another wannabe out of the buisness. No one needs to lose their life thats awful.

I wasnt contradicting myself that was a different point. Im sayin any real thug who grew up poor and speaks the truth in his music aint gonna turn down goin some $ if he went through the struggle. But now the struggle has been mixed with the tough thug shit and is just fucking up rap. PERFECT EXAMPLE: Fabolous. He got skills but he sold out. I dont blame him but he needed some heart on that album and he didnt show any. Ill respect someone more for makin a radio friendly song then sayin hes hard on the album when hes not. Not that most give a damn about anybody but dead presidents. Lets rep the hood thats great but if u got so much love for it why not give some of that money back and help the projects. Thats what I jus dont like period.

And dont talk down to me saying why dont I bring the drama. I dont pop shit on records and make millions off gullable people who buy into it. You jus misunderstood what Im sayin. I love hiphop and all, but its so diluted with fakers talkin shit to noone in particular, but suddenly when shit goes down they get quiet.

-- jsidway (js51138@yahoo.com), October 06, 2001.

I know Prodigy especially needs to do somethin or he aint gonna be makin no $ after that balerina shit at summerjam.sta and I know jigga isnt.

My bad i meant jigga is gonna be makin $ off this shit.

-- jsidway (js51138@yahoo.com), October 06, 2001.

First of all, if you felt that I was "talking down" to you, my bad. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding, like you said. Second, you said, "whoever says 'Jay/Jada/etc. won this round or that round' is wack. Well, I said Jada won 1 round and I felt the need to address your comment. Moving on, I feel that if they beef anywhere but on CD's, they are punks. If they wanna be ganstas and fight people and all that, then they are in the wrong place. The music biz is not here to do anything but entertain and make pockets fat. If someone gets their feeling hurt on CD and they can't respond on CD, but wanna fight it out, they are childish. If they wanna be street, then they can stay in the street and out of the studio. Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 06, 2001.

FUCK JAY-Z FUCK NAS FUCK PRODIGY FUCK BEANIE FUCK JADA FUCK EMINEM MY POINT? EVERYONE WILL HAVE THEIR FAVORITE MC, EVERYONE WILL HAVE THEIR OPINIONS. THE MC's WILL BEEF, YOU WILL BUY/DOWNLOAD/BURN ETC. WHATEVER THEY HAVE OUT THERE. MY QUESTION: HAS ANY MC EVER DONE ANYTHING FOR YOU? HAS ANY MC EVER GIVEN U MONEY? DONATED A LIL' SUMTHIN TO HELP U KNOCK OUT SOME OF YOUR BILLS? BOUGHT U THOSE RIMS U ALWAYS WANTED? AND I'M SUPPOSED TO SIT HERE AND ARGUE ABOUT WHO IS BETTER AT WHAT??

-WHAT THEY EAT DON'T MAKE ME SHIT!

-- Playa Hater (rap4ever@sces.net), October 07, 2001.

This is Jay-z response Nas should learn to keep his mout shut next time and respect the king that has taken over this rap game!!!!

Jay-Z] R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit Memphis Bleek, we runnin this rap shit B. Mac, we runnin this rap shit Freeway, we run this rap shit O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit

The takeover, the break's over nigga God MC, me, Jay-Hova Hey lil' soldier you ain't ready for war R.O.C. too strong for y'all It's like bringin a knife to a gunfight, pen to a test Your chest in the line of fire witcha thin-ass vest You bringin them Boyz II Men, HOW them boys gon' win? This is grown man B.I., get you rolled in the triage(?) Beatch - your reach ain't long enough, dunny Your peeps ain't strong enough, fucka Roc-A-Fella is the army, better yet the navy Niggaz'll kidnap your babies, spit at your lady We bring - knife to fistfight, kill your drama Uh, we kill you motherfuckin ants with a sledgehammer Don't let me do it to you dunny cause I overdo it So you won't confuse it with just rap music

R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit M-Easy, we runnin this rap shit The Broad Street Bully, we runnin this rap shit Get zipped up in plastic when it happens that's it Freeway, we run this rap shit O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit {*"Watch out!! We run New York" -> KRS-One*}

I don't care if you Mobb Deep, I hold triggers to crews You little FUCK, I've got money stacks bigger than you When I was pushin weight, back in eighty-eight you was a ballerina I got your pictures I seen ya Then you dropped "Shook Ones," switch your demeanor Well - we don't believe you, you need more people Roc-A-Fella, students of the game, we passed the classes Nobody could read you dudes like we do Don't let 'em gas you like Jigga is ass and won't clap you Trust me on this one - I'll detach you Mind from spirit, body from soul They'll have to hold a mass, put your body in a hole No, you're not on my level get your brakes tweaked I sold what ya whole album sold in my first week You guys don't want it with Hov' Ask Nas, he don't want it with Hov', nooooo!

R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit B. Sigel, we runnin this rap shit M-Easy, we runnin this rap shit Get zipped up in plastic when it happens that's it O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit Freeway, we run this rap shit Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit {*"Watch out!! We run New York" -> KRS-One*}

I know you missin all the - FAAAAAAAME! But along with celebrity comes bout seventy shots to your brain Nigga; you a - LAAAAAAAME! Youse the fag model for Karl Kani/Esco ads Went from, Nasty Nas to Esco's trash Had a spark when you started but now you're just garbage Fell from top ten to not mentioned at all to your bodyguard's "Oochie Wally" verse better than yours Matter fact you had the worst flow on the whole fuckin song but I know - the sun don't shine, then son don't shine That's why your - LAAAAAAAME! - career come to a end There's only so long fake thugs can pretend Nigga; you ain't live it you witnessed it from your folks pad You scribbled in your notepad and created your life I showed you your first tec on tour with Large Professor (Me, that's who!) Then I heard your album bout your tec on your dresser So yeah I sampled your voice, you was usin it wrong You made it a hot line, I made it a hot song And you ain't get a corn nigga you was gettin fucked and I know who I paid God, Serchlite Publishing Use your - BRAAAAAAAIN! You said you been in this ten I've been in it five - smarten up Nas Four albums in ten years nigga? I could divide That's one every let's say two, two of them shits was due One was - NAHHH, the other was "Illmatic" That's a one hot album every ten year average And that's so - LAAAAAAAME! Nigga switch up your flow Your shit is garbage, but you try and kick knowledge? (Get the fuck outta here) You niggaz gon' learn to respect the king Don't be the next contestant on that Summer Jam screen Because you know who (who) did you know what (what) with you know who (yeah) but just keep that between me and you for now

R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit M-Easy, we runnin this rap shit The Broad Street Bully, we runnin this rap shit Get zipped up in plastic when it happens that's it Freeway, we run this rap shit O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit {*"Watch out!! We run New York" -> KRS-One*}

A wise man told me don't argue with fools Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who So stop with that childish shit, nigga I'm grown Please leave it alone - don't throw rocks at the throne Do not bark up that tree, that tree will fall on you I don't know why your advisors ain't forewarn you Please, not Jay, he's, not for play I don't slack a minute, all that thug rappin and gimmicks I will end it, all that yappin be finished You are not deep, you made your bed now sleep Don't make me expose to them folks that don't know you Nigga I know you well, all the stolen jew-els Twinkletoes you breakin my heart You can't fuck with me - go play somewhere, I'm busy And all you other cats throwin shots at Jigga You only get half a bar - fuck y'all niggaz

-- Alby. C (Delicious_star_69@Hotmail.com), October 07, 2001.

listen to all ya fake ass dumb niggas listen Jay-Z Is Nice dont Get me wrong but the album GheTtO FaBolOus is better than the blueprints, first of all jay-z has done better than that comon look at hard knock life that whole album is sick ya niggas need to stop hating on my son Fab because the nigga is nasty. Yeah i know he spells his name out too much but think about Jay-z always saying "Jigga" Its The R.o.C" or Roafella ya'll' spelling out his name is fabolous's trademark its what makes him, him thats what he does nobody hates on jay-z for always saying that so ya need to just cop that Fab listen to it and realize my son is better than Hova HoLLa Back At that cuz ya cant deny it.

-- FaBoLoUs SpOrT (Fabolous1133@aol.com), October 08, 2001.

Ok lets see here. I've sat and read most of the responces to this and I got to say damn. So imma address all of this:

Jay-Z: Truly the King of N.Y.........4 now.

Nas: He'd regain throne if he just dropped something (please) the streets are thirsty.

Eminem: HE'S WHITE?!? NO-FUCKIN'-SHIT! Get off his nut sac he's a bomb ass rapper. Just 'cause he can rip 50% of the black- "jiggy" rappers out right now, dont hate. Just let it go.

DMX: (My favorite except 4 when he droped "and then there was x..." but he gots "the great depression" now so it compensates) He should definently be in this arguement....and beleave me, he will soon.

Prodigy: He's tight but to be against Hova is a no-a. Wouldn't you think he'd learn his lesson after "hit em' up"? LL COOL J: I'm sorry but the gets nuthin' but props in every thing he does. And he truly deserves to be the G.O.A.T. 15 years, all platinum, own lable, clothing brand, and not to mention dope-ASS lyrics.

Canibus: Go home.

Method Man: Another tight-ass rapper that nobody seemed to mention. So I'll do it...the muthafuka got skillz.

Nelly: Who the he hell let this guy in the conversation?

Master P: All I got to say is "make em say unhhh" WHU DUH FUH? Get that shit out of here.....imeadietly!!!!

Fabolous: To address that I'd like to say a quote from Jay-z: "He's alright/but he's not real." He's good for now but to be on this level, come back with more credentials. And watch, if he gets just a little bit futher in status people are going to give him the "gangsta-pop" vibe just like they do to Jay-Z.

So in short, Nas please we need you asap. Not downing Jay or anthing, but just don't go out like that. But they did rip eachother though. I'm out. One.

Rok.

P.S. Does anybody feel me when I say Scarface did NOT deserve best lyricist of the year. He's not real bad or anything but......................no.

-- Rok (Rokwila2002@yahoo.com), October 08, 2001.

Jay-Z is a PoP rapper period! He may recieve more commercial success but is that how we measure greatness? After all Hammer, Vanella Ice, and Young MC sold a lot of records but in the minds of most will never be considered great Hip-Hop artist. Nas is exactly that; an Artist. Nas on each album has grown, changed, experimented and expressed new ideas. Jay Z in my opinion has remained static in his lyrical concepts. I ask you how many times can you listen to "I'm the best, I sold crack, I got ice and nice cars" Conceptualy Jigga could never see Nas, use of vocabulary; Nas is much more articulate, delivery; hands down goes to Nas, Tracks go to Jigga, comerecial appeal goes to Jigga. What I have found is that most fans of the music Like Jay-Z because he has made alot of money; but I ask what dose that do for you? In the end it comes down to this Jay is Probably the greatest "Slick Talker" in the game and Nas is a natural born "Street Poet" saying Jay Z is the best based on the fact that he has sold more records than Nas is like saying Michael Jackson is better than Prince, or Kenny G is better than Wintin Marsalas, or Britney Spears is better than Whitney Houston. Nas's work has increased in depth and substance while the general public has remained shallow. In order off 1 - 5 here are my greatest; Rakim, KRS-ONE, Nas, Public Enemy, Jay-Z.

-- (mc_365@hotmail.com), October 08, 2001.

Never was a big Nas fan. Mobb Deep/Capone N Noriega/QB is my shit. Jay Z would not be here if Biggie and Tupac and Biggie still were, read that again if you must. I think Nas and Meth to an extent tried to go that route but it wasn't really them. Puff Daddy/ Nas collaboration was wack. Jay Z raps to 11 year old white girls mainly.

-- ODH (litlelordfntlroy@scubadiving.com), October 08, 2001.

yeah we all know Kweli shoulda won that lyricist award

-- Thix (tylahix@yahoo.com), October 09, 2001.

NAS IS THE BEST RAPPER ALIVE RIGHT NOW! HANDS DOWN! JAY-Z IS ON TOP OF THE GAME RIGHT NOW BECAUSE HE'S ON T.V. EVERY FIVE MINUTES AND HE MAKES COMERCIAL CLUB BANGERS, AND THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO BUY HIS ALBUM LIKE HIS BUBBLE GUM RHYMES AND BABY-FOOD LYRICS, AND THAT'S JUST BECAUSE REGULAR LISTENERS TODAY JUST LIKE SH*T THATS PLAYED ON THE RADIO AND THEY DON'T LIKE TO THINK, NAS HAS ALWAYS DROPPED QUALITY LYRICS THAT MADE YOU THINK WHETHER YOU LIKE THE SONG OR NOT, AND HE ALSO PUT OUT SOME COMERCIAL JOINTS TOO, NAS IS A WAY MORE VERSATILE RAPPER THAN JIGGA!,JIGGA IS AN INCREDIBLE RAPPER DON'T GET ME WRONG, IT'S JUST THAT SKILL FOR SKILL AND LYRIC FOR LYRIC NAS IS WAY BETTER THAN JIGGA, IT'S LIKE NAS SAID ABOUT JIGGA "YOUR FLOW IS ONE DIMENSIONAL,YOUR LEVEL IS SECOND GRADE, YOUR ON TOP WHAT COPYING F**K I SAID IT FIRST YOU REPEAT IT, YOUR FALSE CROWN COVERED IN DIRT DEFEATED, Y'ALL N**GAZ ALL HALE THE KING IS DEAD!,HE'S RUNNING LIKE A B*TCH WITH HIS TALE BETWEEN HIS LEGS!,IT'S STILLMATIC STILL EYE FOR AN EYE, YOU WANNA BE GOD! YOU'RE JUST THE NEXT RAPPER TO DIE F**KING WITH NAS!"

-- Robert Fowler (Rlfowler99@hotmail.com), October 09, 2001.

ALL Y'ALL CATZ THAT ARE HATING ON NAS RIGHT NOW SAYING THAT HE FELL OFF AND HE'S GARBAGE AND ALL THAT OTHER BULLSH*T, Y'ALL JUST WAIT WHEN NAS DROPS STILLMATIC AND WE'LL ALL SEE Y'ALL JUMP BACK ON HIS D*CK LIKE SOME GROUPIE B*TCHES, Y'ALL ARE FEELING JIGGA RIGHT NOW BECAUSE HE HAS DROPPED SIX ALBUMS AND HE CONTINUES TO DROP ALBUMS CAUSE HE IS CEO OF ROC-A-FELLA, NAS BEING DEPRIVED OF THE PRIVILAGE OF BEING CEO HAS ONLY DROPPED FOUR ALBUMS, NAS IS HUNGRY RIGHT NOW AND HE SIGNED WITH VIOLATOR SO Y'ALL HATERS WILL SEE WHAT TIME IT IS WHEN HIS ALBUM DROPS FOR REAL! IT'S LIKE NAS'S NEW JOINT PRODUCED BY SWISS "N*GGAZ SALUTE ME,B*TCHES SALUTE ME, SO F*CK WHO YOU ARE I'M DA M*THAF*CKING GENERAL!" WORD!

-- Robstradamus (Rlfowler99@hotmail.com), October 09, 2001.

For all y'all bitches who aint know, Hov is on top of the game right now. Shit when the last time Nas ol' fucked grill having ass came out with a fucking hit? Illmatic was an tight joint, but it aint got shit on the Roc. And can't nobody fucking contest me on that shit. Nas' career has just gone to shit and his pussy ass needs somebody to blame for it! Tupac is and will still be the greatest of all time. Second, comes B.I.G., then without a doubt comes HOVA. That gay ass Oochie Wallie or whatever you wanna call it just prove that this nigga needs to improve his fucking style. I aint dissin Nas' talent cause he has lyrical skills. But he needs to stop being a bitch and step up to the fuckin' plate and stop hatin cause Jay Z has the balls to go for shit and keep it poppin. Fuck what ya heard. Like the song Takeover says, R.O.C.- they runnin this rap shit.

-- Melissa Thomas (foxxee_brown@blackplanet.com), October 10, 2001.

Hey, there's a lot of passionate hip hop heads out there and it's cool that everyone represents their opinions in such a thoughtful and intelligent manner (for the most part). I agree that Pac and Biggie rank #1 and #2 as far as all time MC's go. After that, a lot of names have been mentioned, but no one has thrown Big Pun in the mix. I'm a huge Pun fan and think he had a remarkable combination of lyrics and flow. His wordplay might not be as good at Biggie's but he's in the same league. What do ya'll think of Pun?

Hey yo it's all love, but love's got a thin line and Pun's got a big nine, respect crime but not when it reflect mine The shit I'm on is wrong but it lasts long Pull a fast one, then Pun'll wake up, with the stash gone I'm mad strong, and my cream is fast Smoke the greenest grass, my bitch got the meanest ass and a taste legit, I don't have to waste a whole case of Crist' All it takes is my pretty face and my gangsta wit Lace the click, cause we all share It's all fair like love and war, thug galore with the long hair Big Pun, Pun the name that makes the kids run Like spelling murder reverse it deliver redrum Come one, come all, if you wanna brawl I'm the mighty Thor clotheslining motherfuckers like Steven Segall Cause all you gonna get, is your ass kicked or up in a casket That's it (that's it?) That's it

-- Greg Rock (grock@excite.com), October 10, 2001.

Robstradamus!! Holy shit, I want that to be my rap name.

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), October 10, 2001.

Well, if you ask me, none of these niggaz will ever amount 2 my nigga Pac. Not just Jay, Prodigy(Balerina boy), Nas, Beans, or Kiss. I'm talkin' 'bout N-E rapper out. But, about this beef, I got different takes on it. First off Nas fell off after Illmatic (Which never went gold), and even if your a Mobb Deep fan, lets face it, Mobb Deep was never shit as a clique, let alone Prodigy goin' solo. I feel Jigga will rip Prodigy 2 fuckin' shreds lyrically. And when it comes 2 album selling capability, Nas ain't got shit on HOV. Overall Jay-Z wins. But, lets not forget about how Pac verbally bitch slapped his ass on some of his tracks before his passing. Mobb Deep responded 2 Tupac. I believe Nas did too. What da fuck was Jay's problem? And recently on Pac's latest CD Until The End Of Time, Da Outlawz dissed him on a track called All Out. Jay-Z still has been silent about dat shit. But he's quick 2 answer 2 N-E other beef. Obviously Pac is da real winner here becuz none of deeze coward muthafuckaz wanted drama wit' Pac or hiz lil' rydaz da Outlawz. Oh, Beans and Jada, dats Little League beef. I'm more interested in the DPG DEathrow beef myself, not 2 be sleepin' on my niggaz. ONE

-- L.D. (uylssesk@aol.com), October 10, 2001.

Yo let me kick it to all yall, none of yall know. Nas will Kill Jay'z all he rhymes about is cars and jelewry something rich people can only relate to. And yall go out and buy that garbage. His flow is the same about the same thing. But since he's on MTV and on everything, you except him and like him. Nas is a real lyrists a poet his vocabulary is deep. Jigga cant make songs like Nas, He would fail. Nas can do both he's versatile. But people hate on him because he real, and he dont change for yall he doing his thing he never fell of his lyrics are still there. That CD Nastradamus wasn't really nothing but the other half of his double Cd that suppose to came out with I Am. Stillmatic will prove all of yall wrong. Do yall really listen to rap, it seems Jay-z brainwash all yall. Wake up. Jay-z isn't real he just out trying to make money and he fool all yall. Check the Wu album, they called him a cat in the hat ass rapper. Mother goose nursery rhyme rapper, he wearing suits spinning on his big ass lips. They call him a RB rapper said that was what he was trying to turn it into Rapping Bullshit. All yall like is commercial ass rappers so whoever say Jay-z better than Nas FUCK ALL YALL 4 REAL. MY NIGGA NAS IS NICE AND ON TOP OF HIS SHIT. HOLLA!!!!

-- Mike A. Johnson (vabachelor2001@yahoo.com), October 11, 2001.

I hope I didn't see someone say Big Pun was in the same league as Biggie? My eyes! My eyes! They burn from the blasphemy!

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 11, 2001.

Who is the greatest MC of all-time?

Invariably the reply to this question would be one of the following: Tupac, Biggie, Nas or Jay-Z. However, in a world where both Biggie and Tupac are dead, and artists such as Nas and Jay-Z are systematically sacrificing their artistic integrity with "back-to- back LP's that sound the same", there is an artist who outshines them all.

"The perseverance of a rebel I drop heavier levels It's unseen or heard, a king with words Came out to hustle but I seen street dreams deferred Dark spots in my mind where the scene occurred"

Indeed, ever since he brought us the urban sonnet "i used to love h.e.r," Common has captivated fans of true hip-hop with his exceptionally poetic lyricism.

Mindful of retaining ones roots in the face of commercial success, Common, much like The Roots before him, is on a mission to achieve greater exposure so as to bring real hip-hop artistry to a market firmly in the grip of the sample-laden, commercially motivated, "Jiggy Thug" era.

"I'd be lying if I said I didn't want millions More than that money saved I wanna save children Dealin' with alchoholism and afrocentricity A complex man drawn off of simplicity Reality is friskin' me This industry'll make you lose intensity The Common Sense in me remembers the basement I'm Morpheus in this hip-hop Matrix exposing fake shit"

-- C. Ross (CRoss@hotmail.com), October 11, 2001.

Yo. Much love out to all y'all. There is finally someone with some sense up in here. When y'all talk about "street poets" and deep ass lyrics, y'all got to recognize my man Common. Welcome to 2001. You're bound to see a lot of wack shit, undoubtedly, but Common wants to show you the high point of the fake millenium. He wants to show you that disappointments don't come from all artists, and innovation can only be your friend. Common isn't a man for the intellectual hip- hop heads and the coffee-shop crowd; Common is an artist for everyone. ODB says Wu-Tang's for the children? Fuck that, Common is. Dead Prez is repping for the African folk? Fuck that, Common is. What's that? You're white and you're not sure what hip-hop is aside from a hopscotch move you practiced with your mom? Fuck that, Common's for you. No matter what you do, no matter what genre of hip- hop you're into, no matter what you wear, you can fully appreciate Common throughout the 16 cuts on this LP. I'm still trying to see where Common lacks the skills to be called hip-hop's best MC; not just currently, but of all-time.

-- Dag (daggerone@yahoo.com), October 11, 2001.

I'm really sorry.....but i gotta give it up to 'fabolous sport'. he's been reppin 'fabolous' from the beginning of this thread to the present. of course most people are totally ignoring his ass. but you gotta give it to him for his blind loyalty.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 12, 2001.

Common?! The best MC?! First, I thought I heard it all with someone saying Pun was in BIG's league. But this has to be the worst. Common sells no records. His last record was supposed to be the shit. LP sales aren't everything, especially considering Illmatic didn't go gold. But at least he did that in the early 90s. Now a truly good hip- hop/rap album should AT LEAST go platinum. For Common to be the best he has to distinguish himself from Black Thought, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, DJ Hi Tek, Dead Prez, Pharoah Monch, and the rest of these "sound the same" Rawkus cats. Their delivery is horrendous! For all their deep ass lyrics, Mos Def is the only one who can make you feel it in his voice (and he's not really that good at it). 2Pac came out with lyrics just as deep as Common and whoever, but his delivery was 10 times better. Plus, these cats aren't as witty as Nas, Jay-Z, BIG, or Eminem. Hell, Ludacris and Project, at least they make me laugh and feel good. All Common does is make me think about death and cussin out White people. And his shit doesn't even sound good! His production lacks considerably. That's why he lacks as a complete MC. He is a poet/prophet - I'll give you that. But turning poetry into music is harder than you think, and Common doesn't do it. And another thing, no one has more of claim to being true hip-hop than anybod else. 2Pac is no more hip hop than Biggie who is no more hip hop than Master P, Nelly, Jay-Z, DMX, Ludacris, Missy Elliot, Mobb Deep, Eminem, Bubba Sparxxx, cats still underground, and the list goes on. They all fall under the category "hip hop rappers." Don't hate cause Jay-z makes a club song, Project Pat has no lyrical skill, and Common lacks potent delivery. You don't have to like it (like I don't like Rawkus), but that doesn't make it any less hip hop. But I digress. Common is absolutely NOT the best MC today, yesterday, nor will he be tomorrow if he doesn't switch up his flow, work on his beats, reflect his soul in his voice, and in general, improve on his musical skills. Deep ass lyrics do not make a good MC. Peace.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 12, 2001.

I gotta say I never agreed with you all more than I do now. #1 L.D, yes, the Outlawz called out Jay and he addressed everybody but them. That was weak on Jay's part. He punked out. I'm glad someone finally agrees with me on that (scroll up, I've been saying it since 4ever). #2 Don Was, you are 2 right. I'm not feeling Fabolous, but cuz is and he has shown nothing but 'blind loyalty' (like you said) LOL. #3 Hills, Common? Sales mean nothing nowadays, but yes, Common is not even worthy of being in this dabate. I'm not hatin', but come on.... Common being called the best??? Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 12, 2001.

PEACE to the positive people of the U-N-EYE Much love to all the Gods in the industry making motion for the the heads on the streets. We at war ( f*ck Bush and his fake a** war on terrorism ) The government wants to shut the black youth down and we need to realize that we play A major role in shaping the reality of this world. We need that realness that made hip hop live to come back for many have strayed mesmerized by the " glammer and glitter ". Hip hop is the art and science that has turned the world in A new direction by moving the youth in many countries. Nas and Jay knows this they got knowledge of self they know the struggles the black youth has endured so keep it street GOD keep makin them street anthems that inspire each one teach one. MUCH LOVE PEACE and HAPPINESS

-- QADR the 23rd SCIENTIST (seven7uni@hotmail.com), October 12, 2001.

Amusing that in all these discussions of the greatest of all time, no one has mentioned the absolute best ever: RAKIM!!!

-- gj (johnsong@cadmus.com), October 12, 2001.

Well, for all that we know the world of hip hop is a game. You have to master that game to become the greatest, and frankly blue print is a master of this game. For those of you who don't know who blue print is, it's jay z that is how he want to be known, and of course I'll give him that respect because he earned it for sure.

-- BYRD (seneca19120@yahoo.com), October 12, 2001.

Jay-Z is better than Nas....PERIOD

-- Kiki (quiana809@hotmail.com), October 12, 2001.

A little clarity on the origin of the Jigga/Mobb Deep verbal conflict. There was an article in the Source quoting Havoc "This nigga wasn't around when Snoop came through,crushing them buildings." Referring to the infamous East-West coast beef awhile back which spawned the"New York,New York,"video and song made by those kids,which of course featured a giant-sized Snoop crushing famous NY buildings.Anyway,They went on to say that Jay shouldn't get no love from NY,cuz he wasn't on the frontlines when the bi-coastal verbal slugs flew. Not to mention he made a song responding to Pac's "Hit 'em up" called Dead or Alive. This song featured Jay and Sauce Money blazing Pac after he passed away.I guess he was "persuaded"not to put the song on the Album.The last line was the one that got'em,"We needed the nigga dead." Mobb Deep stayed the course and released "Drop a Gem on 'em" and released it on their album regardless of Pac's passing. So all you folks in Nebraska and Maine,and Minnesota,claiming to know what's going on, now you know.This has been a long time in the making.

-- King Saint (saintize@Yahoo.com), October 14, 2001.

best group = wu tang best female = foxy brown best right now = jay z yall look out for that nigga billy bathgate and please dont bring puffy into this debate, have you seen his new video?? nuff said

-- pj (pj_forever74@hotmail.com), October 15, 2001.

I think that J.Z. is a "fresh dope" and he's a "wack chill". I never heard of Naz but I'm sure he's A "phat crush" who really "busts a freak" rhyme song. My favorite hip hopper is P. Diddy. He's the most "on the hook". I hope J.Z.'s new CD isn't "the Bomb", that sounds really dangerous.

-- A. White (cornywhitedude@youstupid.com), October 16, 2001.

Oh, by the way, I think alot of you are mistaken. The word "Jigga" doesn't start with a "J" it starts with an "N" according to my computer's spell check. I know it's right because I just got this computer and it's brand new. Oh well, "Peace On" "Home spice"!

-- A. White (cornywhitedude@youstupid.com), October 16, 2001.

NAS RESPONDS, FUCK GAY Z, NAS IS STILL THE GENERAL JIGGA IS FOR FEMALES AND LIL ROMEO FANS REAL HEADS KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS, JUST CHECK:

Verse 1:

So you call yourself god mc... J-hova\ drunk the glass of blasphemy & forgot to pray over\ your games over\ crossed the warpath of a brave soldier\ you're a makeover\ my protege trying to takeover\ I was the sheperd that led you\ But you bit the hand that fed you\ mad cause since I met you i never did respect you\ and as hard as it seems\ you know that I fathered your dreams\ you was a groupie always begging to be part of my team\ another case of a boy and his teacher\ I was the first to poison your speakers\ so kill all that noise that your preaching\ I understand\ all your plans to underhand\ aired threats of you pullin my card next summerjam\ let me make this clear hova\ You had my left overs\ she told me your little problem of the day when you slept over\ but that's another subject homey\ ***** you phony\ I'm coming to collect the debt from the years that you owe me\ so what you capitlized... only cause i allowed\ I'm taking aim at your dome\ and reclaiming my throne\ "Who said I that i aint still nasty"

Verse 2:

How you planned on facing\ the half man half-amazing\ Don't need a fam, Nas is a one man invasion\ claim you hot but you flopped with your roc-familia\ cause real recognize real and you're not familiar\ call yourself gansta but you were begging for pardon\ that night in carbon\ when terror squad flipped on your squadron\ Tried to front on their checks\ till pun put a gun to your chest\ YOu said it yourself dog, Nas is one of the best\ Don't need to search for some dirt to expose you\ I leave it up to the flow dispose you\ when i oppose you\ This is it I'm calling ya\ come out and play like "warriors"\ studied my blueprint then pieced together your formula\ Guess the knowledge I speak too deep to follow\ that's why your stomach to weak to swallow\ The real truth that Nas is\ the greates of all timers\ f*ck skeletons, keep only weaponry in my closets

[ Thurs., Oct. 11, 2001 11:03 AM EDT ]

-- Divine Victory (wali_fard@hotmail.com), October 16, 2001.

Read that above dunny. That rhyme speaks for itself. Nas is way to advanced and in depth for Jay Z. Oh yeah I forgot most of you Jay Z fans probably don't know how to read true rhymes since yall so damn concerned with those disco looney toon azz beats that Jay Z acquires. Nas is the next man after PAC and Big realize it. Just wait 'til Stillmatic drops!!!!!!!

-- The Best (Nchekwube@hotmail.com), October 16, 2001.

OHHHHHHHHHHH. LOL LOL. I'm feelin' that Nas comeback, but I need to hear it, before I can say it's really hot. Somebody tell me the name of it. And some one tell me this. I just heard the Jay-z "Wanted Dead or Alive" song. Is this suppose to be about Pac? I heard it was made after Pac died. Now, I got respect for Jigga, but I'll lose it if this is true. Somebody clue me in on this. I know this man did not make a song about a dead man, after he said nothing when the man was alive. Holla

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 16, 2001.

No, it was made before his death, but he died, and he decided to take it off his CD...holla

-m dogg what what

-- m dogg (yourmom@hotmail.com), October 16, 2001.

i really want to respond to much of what i read, but fact is i don't think any pac fan can be swayed into believing he's not the GOAT. there's really no sense in addressing that. you just have to accept the differences of opinion. i have to say that i am enjoying this jay vs nas beef, only because it's bringing the fire out of them back.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 16, 2001.

WHAT THE FUCK. ALL OF YOU ARE TALKING SOME NONSENSE SHIT.JADAKISS RIPPED THE SHIT OUT OF BEANIE.I LIKE BEANIE BUT THAT BITCH PISSED ME OF DISSIN MY MAN JADA.AS FOR MEMPHIS BLEEK HIS TRASH RAP ASS HE LOOKS LIKE A FUCKIN CLOWN WITH ALL THAT SHIT ON HIS HEAD HE CANT EVEN MAKE UP HIS MIND ABOUT WHAT HE IS GONNA RAP ABOUT.HIS ASS WILL GET RIPPED BY SHEEK OF THE LOX. AND FREEWAY BETTER NOT COME WITH NO SHIT DISSIN NOBODY CUZ HIS ASS LOOKS LIKE A GORILLA WITH THAT HIGH ASS VOICE.AND FOR THOSE OTHER NO NAME ROCAFELLA CATS DONT COME OUT DISSIN SHIT CUZ NONE OF YALL BETTA THAN THE LOX.ANYWAY BEANIE DID GOOD IN DJ CLUES MIXTAPE BUT JADA RIPPED HIS ASS.THAT BITCH BEANIE TRYING TO GET PHILLY TO HATE JADA. NOW EVERYBODY IN PHILLY HATES JADA CUZ BEANIES FATASS.YO WHEN I MET YOU ,YOU WUSZ ON MY DICK/ JIGGA GAVE U HIS OLD BENTLEYS NOW U ON SOME SHIT/I DONT KNOW WERE THEY FOUND U SON/BUT INA MINUTE SINCE YOUR POPS AINT AROUND AM A PUNISH U AND GROUND U SON /AND NIGGAS CANT STAND YOU SIGEL YOUR FLOW IS MINE ANYWAY SO DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEED YOU/THEM NIGGES THAT GAS YOU IS ASSED TO(THE ROC)/. THATS A SAMPLE OF THE JADA FREESTYLE SO IF YALL GET THE CHANCE TO LISTEN TO IT YALL WILL KNOW WHO IS EMERGING AS THE KING OF NEW YORK.WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE FAKE KING OF NEW YORK.LETS ANALYZE THIS.HIS FIRST ALBUM WAS HIS BEST ALBUM AND PLUS NAS WAS HOT SINCE HIS FIRST ALBUM ANYWAY SECOND ALBUM WAS ALLRIGHT THEN CAME THAT SORRYASS HARD KNOCK LIFE ALBUM WHICH GOT PLAYED OUT. THEN CAME LIFE AND TIMES THAT ALBUM WAS PRETTY GOOD. BUT THEN THE TRASHIEST ALBUM EVER TO COME OUT IN RAP HISTORY CAME OUT THAT DYNASTY ALBUM WAS SO WACK . I HOPE YOUR SHIT KEEPS ON GETTING BOOTLEGGED CUZ THE OTHER RAPPERS DONT EVEN PAY THAT MUCH ATTENTION TO THE BOOTLEGGERS IN THE STREETS OF NY.THATS WHY YOUR ALBUMS SELL SO MUCH BECAUSE YOU DONT LET NONE OF YOUR ALBUMS GET BOOTLEGGED. WHYLL OTHER RAPPERS ALBUMS ARE GETTING BOOTLEGGED DAILY. AND THEY DONT SELL AS MUCH AS YOUR BIG LIPPED ASS. IF YOU GET BOOTLEGGED THAT MEANS YOUR HOT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND YOU FOOL.ANYWAY MY MAN NAS WOULD RIP YOUR ASS HE SHOULD GO ON SUMMER JAM NEXT YEAR AND PUT YOU ON THE SPOT LITE "HAWAIN SOPHIE"THATS ENOUGH FOR ME . ONE.

-- ALDO ROSARIO (hot97kid@HOTMAIL.COM), October 17, 2001.

HELL NO.WHAT THE FUCK. ALL OF YOU ARE TALKING SOME NONSENSE SHIT.JADAKISS RIPPED THE SHIT OUT OF BEANIE.I LIKE BEANIE BUT THAT BITCH PISSED ME OF DISSIN MY MAN JADA.AS FOR MEMPHIS BLEEK HIS TRASH RAP ASS HE LOOKS LIKE A FUCKIN CLOWN WITH ALL THAT SHIT ON HIS HEAD HE CANT EVEN MAKE UP HIS MIND ABOUT WHAT HE IS GONNA RAP ABOUT.HIS ASS WILL GET RIPPED BY SHEEK OF THE LOX. AND FREEWAY BETTER NOT COME WITH NO SHIT DISSIN NOBODY CUZ HIS ASS LOOKS LIKE A GORILLA WITH THAT HIGH ASS VOICE.AND FOR THOSE OTHER NO NAME ROCAFELLA CATS DONT COME OUT DISSIN SHIT CUZ NONE OF YALL BETTA THAN THE LOX.ANYWAY BEANIE DID GOOD IN DJ CLUES MIXTAPE BUT JADA RIPPED HIS ASS.THAT BITCH BEANIE TRYING TO GET PHILLY TO HATE JADA. NOW EVERYBODY IN PHILLY HATES JADA CUZ BEANIES FATASS.YO WHEN I MET YOU ,YOU WUSZ ON MY DICK/ JIGGA GAVE U HIS OLD BENTLEYS NOW U ON SOME SHIT/I DONT KNOW WERE THEY FOUND U SON/BUT INA MINUTE SINCE YOUR POPS AINT AROUND AM A PUNISH U AND GROUND U SON /AND NIGGAS CANT STAND YOU SIGEL YOUR FLOW IS MINE ANYWAY SO DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEED YOU/THEM NIGGES THAT GAS YOU IS ASSED TO(THE ROC)/. THATS A SAMPLE OF THE JADA FREESTYLE SO IF YALL GET THE CHANCE TO LISTEN TO IT YALL WILL KNOW WHO IS EMERGING AS THE KING OF NEW YORK.WHICH BRINGS ME TO THE FAKE KING OF NEW YORK.LETS ANALYZE THIS.HIS FIRST ALBUM WAS HIS BEST ALBUM AND PLUS NAS WAS HOT SINCE HIS FIRST ALBUM ANYWAY SECOND ALBUM WAS ALLRIGHT THEN CAME THAT SORRYASS HARD KNOCK LIFE ALBUM WHICH GOT PLAYED OUT. THEN CAME LIFE AND TIMES THAT ALBUM WAS PRETTY GOOD. BUT THEN THE TRASHIEST ALBUM EVER TO COME OUT IN RAP HISTORY CAME OUT THAT DYNASTY ALBUM WAS SO WACK . I HOPE YOUR SHIT KEEPS ON GETTING BOOTLEGGED CUZ THE OTHER RAPPERS DONT EVEN PAY THAT MUCH ATTENTION TO THE BOOTLEGGERS IN THE STREETS OF NY.THATS WHY YOUR ALBUMS SELL SO MUCH BECAUSE YOU DONT LET NONE OF YOUR ALBUMS GET BOOTLEGGED. WHYLL OTHER RAPPERS ALBUMS ARE GETTING BOOTLEGGED DAILY. AND THEY DONT SELL AS MUCH AS YOUR BIG LIPPED ASS. IF YOU GET BOOTLEGGED THAT MEANS YOUR HOT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND YOU FOOL.ANYWAY MY MAN NAS WOULD RIP YOUR ASS HE SHOULD GO ON SUMMER JAM NEXT YEAR AND PUT YOU ON THE SPOT LITE "HAWAIN SOPHIE"THATS ENOUGH FOR ME . ONE.

-- ALDO ROSARIO (hot97kid@HOTMAIL.COM), October 17, 2001.

I think Jay-Z and Nas are both great MCs. With this new beef, it's bringing out the best in them. No more, "I'm Jay-Z/Nas so whatever garbage I put out will sell" nonsense. They are bringing it a la 2Pac, and the shit is nasty. But I hope you have noted the aura of 2Pac lingering around this beef. Especially Nas. Whoever typed Nas' verses to Jay-Z earlier have to see the exact same shit 2Pac said about Nas. "This nigga named Nas think he live like me, talkin bout he left the hospital, took 5 like me." Straight Pac. So Jay-Z and Nas can have they beef, but like the real G.O.A.T. said, "you and I know what's goin on..." Also, I heard Jay-Z's "response" to 2Pac. As a song, it's tight, but there's not as much response to Pac as I might have expected. He doesn't even say Pac's name, but he says that the person talkin about Hawaiin Sophie (i.e. Pac) has been on his dick a long time.

On a different note, what's up with Snoop in a horror movie? Jimmy Bones? Snoop is really wildin out.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 17, 2001.

Jay-Z has earned my respect on several levels. As a commercial artist, he has dipped MTV into the far reaches of ghetto life (whether or not he's been to Marcy in a while). He has clever wordplay which is smart enough to make you laugh without thinking too much. Nas delivered a classic with "Illmatic" and I believe that all who jumped off the bandwagon will be sure to hop back on when "Stillmatic" is released. Nas outdoes Jay-Z by feeding the streets hunger for relevant poetry. Jay-Z's fatal flaw: sacrifices introspection for sales. Nas' fatal flaw: has not matched his first work yet. Either way the battle between the two has awakened hip-hop. Since the death of B.I.G (fuck Tupac, he stunk to HIGH heaven), fans have not really bothered to discuss who might be greatest. This "beef" makes it safe for us to dispute and criticize which, in turn, helps the genre grow in general. Let's look at some battles which have added spirit to the Hip Hop community in the past. Common v. Ice Cube (Common wins) Canibus v. LL Cool J (why is LL still even rapping?) Tupac v. B.I.G./East Coast (Tupac may have been a great actor but lyrically he matches some five-year-olds) Beanie Sigel v. Jadakiss (Beanie Sigel doesn't understand that knockout punches are quick and witty, not long and boring) Cormega v. Nas (don't sleep on Mega, he ate Nas' food BIG TIME) Jay-Z v. Nas (In my mind, Nas has not devoted a whole song to dissing Hove yet, and if he does, it will be what "Takeover" tried to be. Jay wins for now though)

-- Andrew Ricketts (ricketts83@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

Bitch, don't let me ever see you dis 2Pac like that. You can say he stunk to high heaven, but bitch, he brought it to a whole coast on Hit Em Up, and if the acid he spit on Hit Em Up is like a 5 year old to you, then you need to critique alternative cause you don't know shit about rappin. And don't get me started on the heat from No More Pain, Against All Odds, Bomb First, etcetera, etcetera. 2Pac produced classic after classic while he was alive, while BIG couldn't go multiplatinum until he died. I love BIG, but unless he is alive somewhere making more albums, he will never be the greatest with 2 LPs. Never. 2Pac was considered the greatest before he died, unlike BIG who received votes for that title out of respect. And wherever those two cats are, BIG needs to be thankin Pac for all the free publicity, and puttin his name out there for the whole world to hear. It has been said in this discussion before, both Nas and Jay-Z are trying to be like Pac in this rap battle. Jay-Z usin Nas' voice (a la Pac using Get Money) and Nas sayin Jay-Z copied off of Illmatuc (a la Pac sayin Nas' whole style is bitten). Anybody who thinks 2Pac stinks better keep their day job, cuz no matter what you thought of his albums, you can't deny his appeal. Everybody loves Pac except for all you wack ass NYC catz (all NYC catz aren't wack - just the 2Pac haters) who want to pick somebody from your city to be the best. And since BIG got shot, Nas fell off, and Jay-Z was just beginning, y'all picked him. But the truth is Pac combined the image, lyrics, delivery, production, appeal, and sales better than any MC could ever dream. Better than Eminem, Jay-Z, or anybody who claims to be hot now. So yeah, bitch, 2Pac was a good actor, but he was the best MC ever on the mic, still is, and it'll be a while before anybody can take his crown.

"All you busters is jealous, pull out yo argument and post it, I dare you niggaz to leave in the thread, this future lawyer will roast it."

I made that verse from Mr. Shakur's "No More Pain." (-Plus all you busters is jealous, pull your gun out and blast. I dare you niggaz to open fire, I'll murder that ass-). I guess I'm just like Jay-Z and Nas cuz I'm stealin shit from the greatest. BITCH!

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 18, 2001.

to determine who is the greatest out of all of these cats, take their nicest lp's and compare them. Pac= All Eyes On Me, Big= Life After Death, Hova= Reasonable Doubt, Nas= Illmatic. In order from least to best comes Reasonable Doubt, Life After Death, Illmatic, and All Eyes On Me. Hate all you want but it is true. And as far as Biggie is concerned, Pac exposed his azz to the world, letting him open up shows for him when they had a friendship. infamous quote "biggie i remember when i use to let you sleep on my couch and beg a bitch to let you sleep in her house, now lets talk about versace you copied my style, five shots couldn't drop me i took it and smiled." yeah yall niggaz remember it, and i bet yall was hatin the shyt out of pac cause he ripped the whole fucking east coast, and they retaliated with sugar coated attacks like Brooklyn's Finest, Dead or Alive, Drop a Gem on Em, and Dead or Alive. Sugar coated means talking about someone in particular but not stating that persons name, SCARY COWARD AZZ NIGGAZ!!!

-- The Best (Nchekwube@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

Oh, by the way, since I'm a 2Pac fan, I have to say that what I wrote earlier was for Andrew Ricketts bitch ass, and anybody else that I catch hatin on PAC. Just like my nigga, when I respond, I use names. Ho ass bastards...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 18, 2001.

jo just to let chall know nas is too garbage!! Jay-Z already japped on em on the blueprint cause hes a laaaaame!!!! nas aint on shit with jigga. beanie sigel japped longer than jada but jada japped harder on em'. jada was bogus for rappin with nas do that shit made him look garbage. but im bout to get little peace out

-- sam-izzle (bigpoppapump84@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

I guess you feel great being an e-mail thug huh, Adrian? Just like your little idol Tupac, talking a lot of shit but not saying much. I respect Tupac as a poet and an actor but anyone who was ever a fan of hip hop (language, form and style) knows that Tupac was not the most complex artist. It's cool that you love him so much though. I think simple people need music too.

-- Andrew Ricketts (ricketts83@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

Andrew Ricketts, I'm not an email thug. I'm a Post A Message thug. Gangsta, if you will. And all I know is, you claimed 2Pac was as lyrically sound as a 5 year old. Bitch, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. First, somebody said Pun was in BIG's league, then Common was the best MC ever, and now you hatin on 2Pac. 2Pac haters is nothin new, but the fact that 8 out of 10 hip hop heads know Pac is the greatest says somethin about the other 2 that ride somebody else's dick just because they didn't particularly like 2Pac. I mean, I can THINK Outkast is tighter than Jay-Z, but damn, I can't deny the fact that he's hotter than they are. I'll buy a UGK cd before I buy any of BIG's, but I ain't stupid enough to say Pimp C is the greatest MC of all time! So for all you PAC hatin bitches (hold up, here comes another tight reworked PAC line...)

"Two years ago, a friend of mine Told me everything I post in threads blows the mind Bear witness to the dopest fuckin message I post Takin off my coat, clearing my throat"

I'm so tight...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 18, 2001.

And what's up with you calling me Adrian? Why not Hillis 3000 or H3K or something like that? Are you trying to show that no matter what name I use, I'm still Adrian Hill at Vanderbilt? Are you being slick, Andy? Huh? You're so clever - and I'm so simple...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 18, 2001.

There has been a post on this thread every day for the past 40+ days. That is unbelievable.

-- David Raposa (daver@popshots.org), October 18, 2001.

Aiight. I think something needs to something needs to be said about COMMERCIAL rap. All of you 'thugs' and 'ganstas' will always have to find new rappers, because hardly anybody keeps the thug life for long. It's like this, remember when you were 16 and got you first fast food gig? Then you went to college, did you stay at that fuccin' job? Do you still want to make 5.15, fucc NO! You want to move up, and you have to use the system to do it. If I make a gangsta album and it selss 300,000 copies, under def jam I just made 1.2 million dollars. That's enough for 1 Bently, 2 hot girls, and 1 platnum chain. They won't play your shit at the clubs, and half the 'thugs' that like it alot stole it anyway. Now, you want to make 5-6 mill, you need to go triple platinum. Everybody needs to feel you, people who will buy your album. That means, club goers, pop lovers (the biggest genre), and dancers. That is the system, you have to change up. Even a smart 'hustler' knows how to use the system. You don't know Jay, or NAS...both are dirty ass thugs, but their friendly on MTV, but that's just for show. The best found out how to work the market, first they got our attention b/c they were thugs, then they used the market. Examples:

Artist Thug Debut Sold in 1 mo Now Sold in 1 mo Jay-Z Reasonable Doubt 178,000 BluePrint 1.2million Ja Rule 3:36 241,000 Pain is Love 500,000+ DMX Dark/Hell Hot 377,000 Then...X 714,000

Are we understanding now?

Jay Z is hot and can definately handle NAS on any level, don't sleep on the ROC.

1

-- Nick (sirrah79@aol.com), October 18, 2001.

ALLRIGHT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN LET ME GIVE YOU THE OFFICIAL LIST OF GREATEST MCS 1.RAKIM 2.KRS-ONE 3.2-PAC 4.BIGGIE 5.BIG L (THIS CAT IS HOT) 6.NAS(STILLMATIC IS GOING TO SHOW YALL) 7.MOS-DEF 8.COMMON 9.BIG PUN(RIP) 10.CANIBUS 11.MY NIGGAS FROM THE WU(GZA,GHOSTFACE,METHOD MAN ETC)(THE BEST RAP GROUP) 12.JAY-Z 13.LL COOL J 14.RASS KASS 15.KOOL G RAP 16.EMINEM 17.PRODIGY 18.TALIB KWELI 19.JADAKISS 20.DMX(CUZ THE GREAT DEPRESSION IS BRINGNG HIM BACK) 21.REDMAN 22.BLACK THOUGHT 23.PHAROAH MONCH 24.BUSTA RHYMES 25.CAPONE............................................................. ...................................................................... ...................................................................... ...................................................................... ......................................1,500 AND THE WORST MC EVER.E-40 WATCH OUT FOR BILLY BATHGATE AND FABOLOUS THEY ARE HOT.

-- lox (hot97kid@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

Maybe the Tupac thing was a cheap shot. I'll give you that. Let's not get to personal issues though. Don't call out my name. Only bitch-ass kids use rap quotations to justify their weak arguments. Sure, I'm from New York. This status entitles me to opinions about hip hop that your tiny brain probably has never even considered. I know you feel that this is America, with free speech and all that. However, do not get carried away. Some stupidity should be kept to oneself. I respect Tupac fans, but not Tupac dickriders. He's dead. Please, get over it. I'm sure you were not his friend. I'm sure you were not at his funeral. He's not coming back. It's time to move on. Hip hop continues to grow without him. I know you're stuck in the past and you probably fantasize about his balls on your chin and other homoerotic pleasures. Regardless, he is gone. It's okay that you thought he was sexy but do not let that color your opinions of music. Don't fuck with a hater...next time I won't be so nice.

-- Andrew Ricketts (ricketts83@hotmail.com), October 18, 2001.

Bitch, I will slap you and ya mama. Only weak ass little kids bring up the issue of homosexuality to justify their arguments. I'm a grown ass mine. I justify my arguments with cold hard facts: BIG didn't sell like Pac, Jay-Z doesn't have the respect like Pac, Nas couldn't stay on top like Pac, and any other NYC rapper you can pull out can't fuck with anything 2Pac has done in hip hop. His delivery was so sick it was uncanny. Jay-Z is too monotone, Nas sounds like the 5 year old you mentioned earlier, and BIG has too much snot in his throat. Lyric wise, he may not be as witty or clever or catchy as Jay-Z or BIG, but his lyrics were 10 times deeper, and he was more of a poet than Nas, Common, Mos Def, or any other Back to Africa bastard that claims to be real hip hop. KRS-1, Rakim, all those cats - where they at NYC? Whatever happened to longetivity? How come Snoop and Too $hort, some lyrically cats, seem to outsell everybody in the NYC? It's cuz they really. I'll tell you what else is hot. Not KRS-1! Don't get mad cuz Pac told him it was "all over now, take it like a man. Niggaz lookin like Larry Holmes, flabby and sick..." Bitch, you just mad he brought it to yo city, and all NYC cats fall like the World Trade Center. And I'm not gon remake a line from Pac this time. I'll use one of your NYC boys...

"It's like New York's been soft ever since Al-Qaeda and them planes came through and destroyed the buildings..."

So Andy, bitch, let's see how mean you can REALLY get.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 18, 2001.

And another thing, Andy, bitch, I didn't know Pac, nor did I attend his funeral, and yes he is dead. But you didn't know him either, you didn't go to his funeral, so I doubt you would have said any of the shit you said earlier to his face like a man. It takes a real pussy to take cheap shots at a dead man on an internet site.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 18, 2001.

MY TWO CENTS ABOUT A FEW THINGS: Overall, Pac was and is the best rapper to touch the mic. He is gone and is still the best. Rakim and all the others had their time back in the day, but they are gone now. Pac is dead and his stuff is still tight and wayyyyy deeper than any rapper out there. Plus, 90% of the rappers out have copied him in some way. NEXT: I give love to east, west, north and south, but overall, east is the best (in my opinion) as far as rap goes. I do admit that we (east) have some nonsense peeps, but so do the other coasts. East and west claim Pac, because he came from the east, but he moved to the west, I admit he took on the east and he got that W if you ask me. NEXT: Those rappers who call out others without saying their names are some fakers. More so if that rapper already said your name i.e. Pac and Jay-Z. If I say your name and you sugarcoat it on your comeback, then you got "PUNKED." LASTLY: Jada killed Beans, he used Beans own song/album titles aganist him, called out the peeps that gased Beans and even mentioned Beanie's mother; he killed him. As far as Jay and Nas, Jay said some harsh stuff, but the "takeover" wasn't his best flow. Saying laaaaammmmme and fammmee and wussy and all of that was weak, and faking like he gonna call Nas out, I wasn't feelin it too much. But Nas... he spoke on how he never respected Jay, and how Jay got punked by Pun and how he had his leftovers (LOL LOL). Thus, I give the win to Nas. He didn't just flow, he made you think.

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 19, 2001.

YO AM TIRED OF ALL OF YOU BIENG ON PACS DICK HE WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST MCS. BUT HE WAS NOT THE BEST SOME OF YOU ARE JUST SAYING THAT HE IS THE BEST TO GO WITH THE CROWD CUZ THATS WHAT THE CROWD SAYS .BUT NO YOU KNOW HOW MANY OTHER PEOPLE COULD RIP HIM UP IN A BATTLE.YO CATS THAT HAVENT EVEN COME OUT YET COULD PROBBALY RIP HIM. TO ME PAC WAS A HARDCORE GRIMEY MC HE AINT CARE ABOUT SHIT. THATS WHAT i LIKED ABOUT HIM.ANYWAY I THINK WHOEVER IS THE KING OF NEW YORK IS THE KING OF RAP BECAUSE NEW YORK HAS THE BEST RAP! WEST COAST HAS SOME TALENT BUT THEY AINT ON NY LEVEL.DOWN SOUTH JUST PLAIN OUT SUCKS ACCEPT FOR OUTKAST.AND THE MIDWEST IS NOT EVEN IN THE PICTURE WITH SORRY ASS NELLY.NAS IS GOING TO TAKE THAT CROWN VERY SOON YALL WATCH AND WATCH OUT FOR JADAKISS

-- lox (hot97kid@hotmail.com), October 19, 2001.

What's up people?

OK. I've been reading these posts for about an hour and I want to contribute my thoughts:

First, arguing about the best ever MC is kind of like people who believe in GOD arguing with atheists. People are going to believe what they want no matter what.

But, having typed that, I need to add that, with regard to Tupac being the best, I don't think even the most rabid Tupac fan (if he's intelligent) can say that he was the best LYRICIST. When you examine lyricism, you have to consider metaphor, simile, wordplay, alliteration, turns of phrase, etc. In these areas Tupac, like most other West coast MCs (and, even though 'Pac was originally from NY - nobody brought this up for some reason - he claimed CA) came up a bit short. 'Pac relied very heavily on his flow (and honestly, I don't think there has EVER been a more passionate, urgent, powerful delivery than 'Pac's) and let that be his guide through the hip hop jungle. East coast MCs, on the other hand, rely VERY much on simile and clever double entendre to shape their lyrics. Biggie, Nas, Jada and Eminem (who isn't exactly East coast but owes his style to the east) all have mastered this technique to one degree or another. It's a coastal, stylistic difference. That's why East coast cats have more love for Biggie than 'Pac (in general) and vice versa in the West.

The other category in which I think 'Pac shuts down ALL other MCs is in work ethic. Tupac is, without question, the most prolific MC of ALL time. Consider this: Tupac drops his first album, 2pacalyse Now, in 1991. He's murdered in 1996. In between that time, he officially released (if we include Don Killuminati, which he had finished) 6 albums. Furthermore, he'd recording over 100 other songs that hadn't found a home on an album yet. All that work in 5 years (1 1/2 of which he'd spent in prison). No other MC can boast that kind of productivity. So, when it comes to flow and productivity, 'Pac is first. I'll leave the 'Who's the G.O.A.T. LYRICIST' debate to you other cats.

-- Lovelle (alovelle01@aol.com), October 19, 2001.

Before I go nuts, I must say Lovelle is right. Arguing about the greatest MCs is like believers versus atheists. And I also agree that Pac ONLY as a lyricist, was not the best. That said, I ask what makes Michael Jordan greater than Shaquille O'Neal? You can say you'd rather have Shaq on your team, and that's fine. That's your personal opinion. But when consideringwho is the greatest, you have to consider what he's done, not potential/personal feelings, etc. Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever because of the six championship rings, numerous MVPs, scoring titles, defensive awards, All-Star games, three-peats, the 72-10 team, and even before all that, he still was in the top 5 in the league. Look at what Jordan actually physically accomplished, and you'll see he's better than Shaq all time. So goes Pac. Sure, you can like BIG's wordplay more. Sure you can make BIG your favorite. But, c'mon. He didn't do near as much as Pac, and his claim to fame is in potential. I said it before, and I'll say it again: 1 or 2 hot albums do not make a great MC. Ask Nas, Mobb Deep, and especially BONE. They fell hard after their first album. Biggie could have, too. I doubt it. Who knows, Biggie could have pulled a Baby Jordan (i.e. Harold Miner). I find it unlikely, but possible. So 2Pac is the greatest because he was the most successful, and 8 out of 10 people agree 2Pac is the best, so you have to give him the nod. If we just pick MCs based on our own personal preference, then Master P and Nelly could legitimately be considered better than Biggie. Of course, that sounds ludicrous, but y'all took it there, not me.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 19, 2001.

Now this is for that Lox, bitch, punk bastard who wrote that shit in all capital letters earlier... Bitch, you kiss my entire black ass. Bitch, being a Pac fan don't mean anybody is on his dick. Bitch, we just realize he's better than anybody, and that's why the muthafucka's dead and still gets more props than any MC still livin. Where's BIG's shit? Born Again? That shit was a disgrace, but I won't hold it against BIG, cause that's not his fault. And you can all that King of NY=King of rap nonsense, cuz if you ask me, New York only has 2 legitimate contenders: Ja Rule and Jay-Z. And Ja Rule isn't that impressive. DMX and Nas have not matched their earlier success. But anyway, NY is so full of shit and building rubble it's ridiculous. You say the South (where I'm from) sucks, but bitch, why do all you New York cats take our style and our beats. I'll tell you why. Pac exposed the pussy that ran all through NY and so after he died, everybody came to South cuz we made ya head knock, and you can put in any track and it would be hot, cuz we know how to sell music. So you wack ass NY cats wanted your supposed Crown of Rap back, so you (mainly Jay-Z) came down here and begged us for our beats. So we gave em to you, restored the buildings Snoop crush, then y'all want to act like y'all the kings again. Don't bite the dick you ride, NY. If the South is so weak, why do you always beg 8ball and MJG to do collabos (i.e. Mase, Puffy)? Why did Juvenile expose how weak Drag-On is in "Down Bottom?" Why did UGK jump on Big Pimpin (which was produced by fellow southerner Timbaland - who saved NY's ass) and make Jay-Z look lame? Jay-Z and Puffy tried to rap like they from the south and they just sounded stupid, cuz their delivery is weak. And then what about Jadakiss beggin Fiend and 8ball to do a song? Why Jay-Z beggin the Hot Boys to do collabos with him? Cause y'all bastards need the Dirty, Dirty. We don't ask people from the North to do songs, cuz we can sell with out you bastards. But the NYC cats know they need the South to sell outside of NY. That's why Outkast and Jay-Z came out on the same day last year, and Outkast won the head to head battle. And that's why 400 Degreez sold more than Hard Knock Life. And that's why Project Pat, Trick Daddy, Ludacris, Three 6 Mafia, and other southern cats (who stink lyrically) can go platinum, cuz the South gives all coasts what they want, while if it wasn't for us, you NY cats would still be using third-grade beats from 1993. So, bitch, just like BIG should do Pac, the whole city of NY should thank the South for putting NY hip-hop back in the mix.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 19, 2001.

maybe i didn't make it clear earlier. YOU DO NOT ATTACK PAC!! pac fans take the shit straight to heart. this shit, as you can see, can get ugly fast.

i'm from the east coast(born in philly), but raised down south. always loved pac. never felt he was the greatest. but that's not the type of music i listen to. always a fan of hip hop, my standards are lyric-based. most of my favorites, many of you have probably never heard of. but this is what makes us individuals. we are alike in that we all have a love for hip hop(rap), but our differences in styles are obvious. because of moving around a lot in life i gained an appreciation for different types of hip hop. of course i won't buy it all, but i respect originality and talent no matter where you're from. as far as jay z, nas, pac, big, jada, beans, and whoever else, it's definately some strong opinions out there. but don't let 'a fans loyalty' become disrespectful. getting your point across is one thing, but look to the art itself. if you can't express your opinion without a certain amount of respect for the person you're talking to, then you're wasting your time and simply starting a fight. no one can learn that way.

best lyricists in my opinion: ras kass(west); talib kweli, mos def (east); eminem(somewhere in the middle); outkast ,yes, both of them (south); and many, many, many underground artists that will never go platinum. some will never even get a contract. sad. anyway, sorry this was so long.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 20, 2001.

I remember you saying that before (Don Was) about you can't tell a Pac fan that he's not the best. Maybe you are right because I feel he was the best and still is. And Hillis did kinda jump out there on the Lox cuz with all caps, but he had it coming. I didn't agree with the jokes about the buildings (no disrespect) but I felt what he was saying about Pac and I did agree with that. With that said, I'll say that peeps can break it down however they want and into how ever many parts, meaning this person may have had the better rhymes, but the next had the better hooks, etc. etc. But overall Pac was the better and best rapper, take it how you want. No one has dropped BOTH hardcore diss tracks (Hit em' Up, Aganist all Odds), and deep songs like Dear Mama, Brenda's Gotta Baby, Keep Your Head Up. I'm saying, he was very versatile and no one has matched that as of yet. Many try, Ja, Jay, etc. None of the new one's can do it. But this of course is my opinion so anyone can disagree, but just think about what I said, before you disagree. Also, I'm from D.C. so I can't shoot off a list of rappers who put us on the map. But I gotta say that the east clearly has the best rappers when you look at it from a numbers standpoint. Each side has some fools like Nelly, and each side has someone who can rep it like Em, but right now, the east has more. Earlier, I DID point out the fact that Pac honed his skills on the east side. But all I care about is "Can he or she flow?" I could care less about where they reside.

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 20, 2001.

MY 2 CENTS: I just wanna say a couple of thangs: 1st, Tupac was easily the best lyricst/MC/rhymer of all time. 2nd, all yall niggas dissin Common, Mos Def, and Talib Kweli obviously are to stupid to recognize real hip hop. Third, all this bull-isshhh about Jay Z being better than Nas will end the DAY Stillmatic comes out. When Nas shows yall why he's still the best NY MC alive today, then all these bandwagon jay z lovin niggas will shut the hell up. So in the meanitime, all my fellow Nas fans, don't even argue with ignorant ass niggas cause it ain't worth it. One

B

-- bwrecks (biruke@hotmail.com), October 21, 2001.

has anyone heard stillmatic yet,(the whole cd)?. i haven't personally so i'm not going to put my hopes into nas just yet. i've got to hear it first. if he brings it this time, i'll be the 1st on this thread to give him his respect. until then, i've got to put my money into something i can stand to listen to more than once. i'm not rich, i can't just buy shit based on hype. nas has disappointed me too much in the past.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 21, 2001.

yo, most of u sons a bitches don't know shit. Jay is gay, a homo, he's the softest most "pop" rapper in the damn game now. I'll admit Nas fell off, big time, and this will bring him back, but at least he ain't str8 up pussy like jay. I think alot of rappers have fallen though, u can't really blame them. When niggaz first come out they bring the best shit and put mad effort 'cause they hungry, after awhile and some success niggaz ain't as hungry, it takes beef to get some damn effort. Look at all da niggaz thats fallen: Busta(mad pop now, Anarchy was the worst thing I ever heard and he used to be my fav), WU-tang( meth everyone they suck ass unless they on someone else's shit, Tical 2000 was the worst cd ever,so was the "W") DMX's first cd was off da heezy, second was str8, everything since has been pop ass party music,redman was the man but now he's just ok, snoop is str8 up homo pretty much, alot of niggaz dun fell off.

and 4 all u fags sayin' jayz is da best lyricist u gotta be shittin me! He ok, thats the most I'll give him. Pac and Big are obviously the greatest fine, thats been established. But people in the game nowadays its tough ta find really good lyricists. Slim is incredible, but he's slippin slightly too, not terribly but a lil. Royce da 5'9 is the fukin man and people ain't been givin him props, alot a people don't kno who he is. Canibus is great, but his beats and production suck ass. Big L was pretty damn good too b4 he got hit. Nas has always been good until the last album or so, Jay may come out w/ a cd every 2 months, but alls he's sellin is horse shit. Nas is gonna tear him the fuck up just like he did w/ the fu-schnickens shit. Its all over ain't even worth arguin about. Jay is a pop pussy homo and its about damn time someone called him on it. I don't wanna hear anymore about his 83rd trial or Big Pimpin part 47, its wak its done, beanie suks, rocafella suks, its time for some fukin creativity in the rap game 'cause its really startin' to suk.

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 21, 2001.

I also gotta agree w/ my nigga B, common and mos def, especially mos def are tight as hell

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 21, 2001.

does anyone actually think jay is gay, or is this just a part of showing disrespect to him. i'm not trying to be funny, i'm serious. cause i haven't heard anything concrete about him and other men. someone let me know, cause that's just unacceptable!!

i agree with some of what karl has said. many artists have fallen after coming out strong. staying on top of the hip hop game is probably the hardest thing to do in music. simply put, many artists not only lose their hunger, but their credibility when they start making millions. i'm not sure how outkast continues to stay original and on top of the game. they get madd respect from me. jay? i can't front, i haven't bought all of his cd's, but year-in year-out he has my head noddin to at least 1 or 2 cuts. but he does piss me off sometimes with the rkelly, mariah c. bullshit. but i guess that's the business side of it. not for me to understand. for the record, 'blueprint' is pretty much bangin'. nas? won't believe in him til he proves it. i can bring up illmatic but so many times in an argument. he has to help a nigga out. potential doesn't cut it anymore.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 21, 2001.

You just cant admit the greatest rapper is Eminem

1. Lyrics-no one more original, wittieer and tighter, and he can switch up flows (forgot about dre)

2. record sales- jayz is minor leagues compared to Em

-- Perics (calvinesco@toosexyforyou.com), October 21, 2001.

Karl hit it on the spot. JayZ aint shit and he never was. Nas already killed him in stillmatic. I read the lyrics and Jayz is as good as dead.

-- giLL (giLLsdaskiLLs@hotmail.com), October 22, 2001.

I dont know aboutthe feud, both Nas and Jay Z are nice..Nas did fall off after Illmatic, but how can he ever top that album?? Its a classic. Period. Jigga is dope...but some of your talking abouth the greatest rapper of all time?? If you haven't heard,his name is 2Pac. hands down..BIG entertained you, but Pac inspired,motivated and captivated you!! Tupac Amaru Shakur-T.T.E.O.T.

-- Bryan Lopez (miguel4276@hotmail.com), October 22, 2001.

With the exception of Illmatic, Jay-Z is on top of the rap game, theres no denying it. Nas fell off a long time ago, why do you think his new joint is called "stillmatic". This feud is gonna sell a lot of copies for both these dudes, but you got to be careful with this shit, you saw what happened to Pac and Biggie!

-- Mark Mackintosh (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), October 22, 2001.

What the fuck are you talkin' about. U musta smoked you're self retarded Mark. "watch out 'cause u know what happened to Pac and Biggie", are u a newcomer to the rap game? Mad niggaz dun beefed before and it hasn't ended in death. Eminem and everyone alive have caught beef, so have all the other rappers, but especially in this case w/ Nas and Gay Jay neither one would ever let it get violent.I think that thats the last thing that would happen in this case. Its just gonna be a lyrical ass whoopin against Jay. Damn I'm tired of ignorant sons a bitches yappin w/ no sense or knowledge, ya jackass!

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 22, 2001.

YO AM TIRED THAT BITCH ASS NIGGA HILLIS 3000 COMING UP IN HERE TRYING TO START SHIT. HIS ASS DOSENT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT RAP. I READ MOST OF THIS THREAD AND HIS BITCH ASS IS ALWAYS TALKING SHIT TO SOMEBODY ELSE.I WAS LAUGHING MY ASS OF WHEN I HEARD THAT COMEBACK IT MAKES ME REALIZE HOW MUCH FUCKIN IDIOTS ARE IN THIS WORLD. AND HOW COULD SOME BITCH ASS NIGGA LIKE HIM TALK ABOUT THE BUILDINGS OF NY LIKE THAT.WE AT WAR WITHN SOMEBODY ELSE AND THIS BITCH IS MAKING FUN OF HOW SO MUCH PEOPLE DIED.ANYWAY I DONT WHY YOUR TALKING SO MUCH NONSENSE ABOUT HOW THE WACK ASS SOUTH IS BETTER THAN NY. BITCH HIP HOP CAME FROM NY FROM THE BRONX EXACTLY. "SO IF IT WASENT FOR THE BRONX THIS RAP SHIT PROBABLY WOULDNT BE GOING ON.I DONT KNOW WHY THE HELL DID YOU BRING OUT THEM WACK ASS RAPPERS FROM THE SOUTH LIKE FIEND,TRICK DADDY,8BALL ,UGK,YOU SHOULDNT EVEN BE IN THIS THREAD TALKING ABOUT THAT WACK ASS DOWN SOUTH SHIT WHEN WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GREATEST MCS.SO DO ME A FAVOR GET YOUR STUPID DONT KNOW SHIT ABOUT RAP ASS OUT OF THIS THREAD CUZ YOU MAKE NO SENSE TRYING TO PROVE A POINT.ANOTHER THING AM NOT HATING ON TUPAC HES HOT. BUT GET OVER IT THAT NIGGAS DEAD HES NOT HERE ANYMORE. THERE SOMEBODY BETTER THAN HIM OUT THERE DONT DICK RIDE SO MUCH YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

-- lox (hot97kid@hotmail.com), October 22, 2001.

Lox, bitch, I don't start shit I finish it. I ain't gonna stand by and let muthafuckas say dumb ass shit like Big Pun is on BIG's level, Common is the greatest MC of all time, there's a lot of MCs better than Pac, and the Dirty South sucks. Bitch, you said the Dirty sucks, so a cat (whodi, shawty, etc.) that knows about wild parties, fast cars, jewelry in the mouth, slow walkin, slow talkin, and BBQ get- togethers from down heah had to protect his set. If you got somethin to say about the dirty, let us show you what music is supposed to do...make you get wild. We make music for the people, not you so called bitches who know "real hip hop." Bitch, you wouldn't know hip hop if it hit you in the face. Any sorry ass NYC cat that puts out an album, y'all say he's real hip-hop, even if the cat ain't sold one album, just because he's from NY. So while I'm supposedly ridin Pac's dick, I'd rather do that than ride any lame ass rapper out the NYC. That includes Jay, Nas, BIG, Mobb Deep, and whoever else. And if all those South rappers are so wack, why do they have all the collabos and record sales? I know, you're going to say they're "pop" or "commercial," right? Well, just because we know what's hot, don't hate. We bounce, and EVERYBODY appreciates bouncin. You know you like it, too. But deep ass lyrics wilh bullshit beats don't go anywhere other than NYC.

And you big dumb ass, what the fuck does hip-hop being started in the Bronx have to do with anything? Jim Naismith invented basketball, but he ain't the best player ever. In fact, the best player (who can come back at 38 and still kill hoes) is from North Carolina -take ya shirt off- which is in none other than the Dirty.

And about you and ya fuck ass buildings, you and the rest of the fake ass US can suck my dick. Everybody wants to be proud to be American now until about a year from now, when everybody goes back to ignoring people, and white girls start clutching their purses when niggas walk by, or people start back assuming all Hispanics are illegal aliens. And everybody wants to do these wack ass ceremonies to "honor" the dead when no one gave a damn about the hard work they did when they were alive. Don't get me started on America's war and how it takes the loss of 6000 before we realize how precious life is. But I ain't even gon go on about that, so...

Bitch, you and the rest of ya wack ass city can hate the South, but bitch we sittin fat stackin mad paper from record sales, while Jay-Z and BIG are the only NY cats to know the meaning of multi-platinum. And the only reason Jay-Z goes platinum is because he came to the Dirty and learned about how to produce MUSIC and he said fuck NY's fake ass version of "real" hip hop.

P.S. Don't forget about weak ass Prodigy beggin B.G. to do a collabo. P.P.S. I've heard a song called "Want to Play Rough?" that may be on Nas' Stillmatic. Also, the Jay-Z/Rocafella diss on Stillmatic looks good on paper, but the actually song is merely OK. The beat is wack. It's too "jiggy." I think it's a remake of Get Money, but I'm not sure. Also, Nas raps too fast. I was disappointed.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 22, 2001.

Hey this is for Hillis 3000 or Adrian or P. Diddy or whatever the hell your name is. If you are seriously studying to be an attorney then there is something very wrong with the university/law school you are attending. There's no doubt that your comments on this thread are passionate and heartfelt (although ridiculously juvenile). However, you are a little too sensitive, far too impulsive and way too immature to ever be a successful attorney. In addition, your borderline psychotic infatuation with Tupac Shakur is a little weird "...bitch, don't let me ever see you dis 2Pac like that..." Easy boy. What are you, his little brother? Listen, I like Tupac's work. I like hip-hop. But put the shit in perspective man. You think you can be an attorney!? What's with the jokes about NY City and the burned down buildings? Someone criticizes a fuckin' rapper that you apparently worship and you make a crack about a National Tragedy. You're an easily impressionable, obsessive little fuckin' punk tryin' to spit some sort of pseudo-intellectual bullshit on a topic that, in the grand scheme of things, is not that important. You want to be a lawyer? Why don't you study the works of Clarence Darrow or Daniel Webster, instead of quoting lines from your favorite Biggie song? And this shit of revising Tupac lyrics (like a fuckin’ 12 year old boy) to demonstrate some wit and intellect , “…All you busters is jealous, pull out yo argument and post it, I dare you niggaz to leave in the thread, this future lawyer will roast it…” Are you kidding me!? You’re a dreamer Adrian. You’ll never ever be an attorney. You’re one of those cats who’s an eternal student of life, never a teacher. Save the tuition money Hillis, and stick to that jar of Vaseline and your 2Pac poster. Leave the legal work to those of us who have earned the distinction and are committed to it .

-- JS (jstephenson@yahoo.com), October 22, 2001.

Hi. I don't know who you all are, or how you found your way here, but I'd like to point out that this thread is part of the I Love Music discussion board, available from Freakytrigger magazine. Seeing as how all y'all know a bit about hip-hop, I'd like to invite you to check out the rest of the board, which tends to be a bit lackluster in the rap department right now. Also, I should warn you that the board tends to be more, er... polite and analytical than the direction this thread has taken.

-- Sterling Clover (sterling_clover@yahoo.com), October 22, 2001.

HILLIS YOUR A STUPID ASS BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW SHIT ABOUT HIP HOP I CANT BELIEVE YOU CONSIDER THAT DIRTY SOUTH SHHIT RAP!YOU CLAIM YOU LIKE TUPAC AND NONE OF THE NIGGAS FROM THE DIRTY COULD EVEN COME CLOSE TO TUPAC HE IS JUST ON ANOTHER LEVEL. AT LEAST LIKE NIGGAS THAT MAKE YOU THINK ABOUT THE SHIT THEY SAY LIKE TUPAC.ALL THE FUCK TRICK TALKS ABOUT IS "I AM A THUG" AND I HAVE ALL THESE BITCHES AND CARS AND MONEY. NIGGAS ARE GETTING TIRED OF HEARING THAT SHIT THAT THE SOUTH HAS TO OFFER.YOU NEVER HEARD TUPAC JUST RHYME ABOUT THAT SHIT DID YOU.IAM FROM NEW YORK BUT I LIVE IN MIAMI AND I HAVE TO HERE ALL THESE HATING ASS NIGGAS HATING ON NY AND THEY HAVE NEVER EVEN BEEN THERE. IF THEY EVER GO TO NY TO TALK SHIT THEY WILL GET THERE ASS WUPPED NA'MEAN.I BET YOU ANY FUCKING CITY IN THE SOUTH AINT BETTER THAN NYC.ATLANTA AND MIAMI COME CLOSE BUT NO CIGAR.ANYWAY WHERE ARE YOU FROM?ALL YOU SORRY ASS COUNTRY NIGGAS ARE ALWAYS HATING ON THE NORTH CUZ WE AHEAD OF YOUR BITCH ASSES.CUZ YALL TALK SLOWER THAN US AND ARE JUST PLAIN OUT SLOW IN EVERYTHING.YOU CANT COMPARE TRICK DADDY TO NAS CUZ NAS WILL EAT HIM UP ALIVE.DONT TALK ABOUT ALBUM SALES BECAUSE HALF OF THE PEOPLE THAT LISTEN TO RAP DONT KNOW SHIT ABOUT IT.THEY JUST BUY SHIT SO THEY COULD SHAKE THEIR ASSES AND BUMP IT IN THERE WHIPS.AND AM WORRIED ABOUT THAT TWIN TOWERS SHIT CUZ MY COUSIN USED TO WORK THERE AND NOW SHES MOURNING THE LOSS OF HER COWORKERS WHILE YOUR IN THE BACK FUCKING LAUGHING.YOUR PROBABLY ONE OF THEM FUCKING CRAZY ASS MUSLIM SUICIDE BOMBERS OR ONE OF BIN LADENS NIGGAS.IF YOU ARE A TUPAC FAN YOUR SUPPOSED TO LIKE ALL THAT COMPLEXED SHIT MOST NY RAPPERS TALK ABOUT. ONE.

-- lox (hot97kid@HOTMAIL.COM), October 22, 2001.

AND ANOTHER THING HILLIS MICHEAL JORDAN IS STRAIGHT OUT OF BROOKLYN.

-- LOX (HOT97KID@HOTMAIL.COM), October 22, 2001.

This goes out to JStephenson who broke out that "student of life, never a teacher nonsense...You can teach and still be a student, fella, who are you the almighty righteous one?? Second of all, all this country needs are more lawyers...Answer this whats your purpose in life?? to be a lawyer-your a magot!!....Yes what happened to the Trade Center was a tragedy, Im from the L.E.S....but it was just a matter of time before that was going to happen. Look at the U.S. Foreign Policy. and the countless other Imperialistic sanctions imposed..

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), October 23, 2001.

Dear Manny Guervara,

No shit you can teach and still be a student. Read my message you fuckin' piece of garbage. Are you fuckin' stupid! You're justifying a terrorist act that killed thousands of innocent people. "...but it was just a matter of time before that was going to happen...". US foreign policy and imperialistic sanctions? The United States is the most underappreciated and overcriticized nation in the world. Listen you fuckin' worthless piece of garbage, if you don't like this country, please go back the third world country from which you defected. This country doesn't need any more lawyers!? What this country doesn't need is trash like you disrespecting this great nation.

-- JS (jstephenson@yahoo.com), October 23, 2001.

i think it's really cool that intelligent people are finally taking up more space in this thread, but Nas vs Jay Z turning into a political argument? well, i agree that our country definately has it's flaws. that aside, it's still the greatest country in the world. the crap that we do is definately on par with what the worst of this world has done, but the freedom to post this information in a thread is golden. NY? got mad love for you. i'm from the North, Philly to be exact. but for anyone to put down the music of a whole region is probably the most ignorant thing a person can do in this thread. i've lived in the south for years and i'd dare someone to try to move a crowd here on some strictly eastcoast type music. it just won't work. while i personally listen to much of the underground eastcoast type material, i find my self amongst few down here in Alabama. simply put, most of that "real hip hop" doesn't leave NYC. at least that down south flavor travels throughout the south, the midwest and much of the west. though the lyrics may not be deep, enough people like it to call it music. when i first moved down south, i thought it was oh so cool that i was from up north. brothers wanted to be like NY, talk like NY, dress like NY, listen to NY music. that shit played out real quick. brothers ain't really studying NY anymore, and haven't for years. that bullshit about NY being the 'end all-be all of shit that's good', is total garbage. the south has got their own thing goin on, as does the midwest and the west. all NY has goin on is NY. no more no less. my preference in hip hop music is pretty much eastcoast. but what moves me doesn't always move everyone else. if you haven't already learned that lox, you will.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 23, 2001.

A friend of mine told me to check out this thread to confirm the popular notion that hip hop/rap fans are truly lowlife garbage. Do you realize how funny and embarassing your music is? Chanting monkeys convincing themselves that their "poetry" is profound narrative of "the streets". Bullshit. I've read dumb dead ass Tupac's lyrics. I've read dumb dead ass Biggie's lyrics. These are the "poets" you worship? This is the best you have to offer? Neither of these uneducated waste of lives could even speak the English language properly. In between the "we wuzzes" and other embarrasing attempts at grammar is the essence of hip hop: dumb dribble for a dumb culture. This guy Hillis 3000 is an absolute hilarious clown. Everything you've written is ridiculous. And you wonder why ladies clutch their purses when you stroll by...

-- Rap Sucks (sod@excite.com), October 23, 2001.

Suddenly this thread isn't funny anymore, but turning ugly, violent, and racist. Please keep this stuff off our clean family board, eh?

-- Sterling Clover (sterling_clover@yahoo.com), October 23, 2001.

Yo, first of all let me say both Jay and Nas are tight ass MC's and Jay did rip Nas a new on the Blueprint (Track 2, Takeover), but how can you say Nas fell off. I know people who still listen to It Was Written and I AM. Nastrodamus was average though. But battling MC's is what its about from LL and KoolMoe Dee to Pac and Biggie to this...I do think Jay hypnotized a few people into being his fan with all the ice and chrome 20's but if your hot, your hot. Maybe Fox Boogie can help them work out their differences since she's been known to work with both of them... and for the record Jay wasn't the first to head south... Nas did it with I Am when he had Scarface on track number 5... listen before make an opinion. Put those "How to be Jay-Z" make-up kits away and listen to some music...

-- Ken Bailey (knymac@yahoo.com), October 23, 2001.

Yo, right off da bat, Nas is hot as f*** and too many out there is sleepn on him and yall mustove forgot. He's still da poet wit da illmatic flow, keeping it strait street fa ya ears to list. And as far as Hova is concerned, yeah he still hot and doing his thing but he ain't ready fa "lyrical/battle exercise" wit Nasty. Personally, I feel he definitely went "lime-light" status. He don't write fa da streetz anymore. And even though throughout his career he remained fairly consistant, he'll never be as hot as he was on da Reasonable Doubt. If you cats heard anything from Nas new s*** stillmatic, you a realize that he's taking back to illmatic plus 1. Even though every rapper out there is out fa his head. Last but not least, weather Hov admits it or not, He know Nas is hot. He always gave Nas his props throughout his career; adding him in his personal "Holy Trinity" of rap when he quoated, "argued all day about, who's da best Emcees, Biggie, Jay-Z and Nas." Nas never really respected Jay-Z since Reasonable Doubt when he dropped da classic single Dead Presidentz in which he sampled Nas voice from Illmatic. Every since then Nas had personal beef wit Jay and it grew from there. And I feel da Jig is making a crucial mistake in making a public rival wit Nas. Not that its hurting his sales but he's making Nas a very popular rapper. Even Jay-Z's fans are awaiting Stillmatic to hear his comback on Jig's diss on Da Takeover. Jay, you making my manz rich yo!

--Illivised.. Holla

-- illivised (illivised@yahoo.com), October 25, 2001.

Stephenson, Just what I thought. your a fool with lots of Racism feelings that you need to work out with a therapist. You have been brain washed with all that America is this great nation nonsense that you are obviuosly an idiot who talks out of their ass..Yes America does their share but as long as its in their National best interest, quid pro qou you fucknig yuppie!!! oh yeah for your 411 I am not in the States and nor do I want to be in it again until all you Pilgrims are out of their. whose the real Illegal Alien now you fucking cockroach...Hasta La Victoria Siempre-MG

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@homail.com), October 25, 2001.

Just wanted to re-post this comment made in a Nas Escobar Yahoo club: The link mention in the article is shown below: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1446481/20010809/story.jhtml

Here are some interesting excerpts from that MTV article: ================================================== "There's no need for rappers' mothers to put on the Kevlar just yet, but their MC sons are spewing a lot of venom at each other these days. Jadakiss has been beefing with Beanie Sigel. Sigel has made it clear he's not feeling DMX. DMX may have it in for Jay-Z; Nas definitely does. Nas is also going at it with Sigel, Cormega, Freeway and Memphis Bleek.

Jadakiss swears it's mostly hype. "Usually everything is to make money," he explained. "If you can make money off it, then it's beneficial."

"It's music," Jay-Z said last week, on the set of the video to "Izzo (H.O.V.A.)" (see "Jay-Z Gets Serious, 'Soulful,' On New Video And Album"). "It's rap music. Rap music was built on being competitive — MCs from back in the days battlin' and trying to be the best. But now you've got money involved, so you take that competitive fire and you add it along with money, and you got a lethal combination. But it's good for rap music."

Nas piles on the Jiggaman on his new dis record, a freestyle called "Stillmatic," on which he also spits fire at Cormega, Freeway, Memphis Bleek and Beanie Sigel.

"I rule you, before you used to rap like the Fu-Schnickens," Nas raps. "Nas designed your Blueprint; who you kiddin'? It's H-to-the- izzo, M-to-the-izzo ... the rapper version of Sisqó."

To Jay-Z, it's all about positioning to be at the top of the rap ladder.

"[Nas] is definitely gonna bring out the best of me; he's gonna put me at the top of my game," Jay said of his fellow lyrical giant. "It's like playing basketball with a guy. He's gonna put me on top of my game; I hope I do the same for him. I don't want to hurt the guy. It's just verbal sparring. No one is fighting. It's just records." " ================================================== If you look back in history, scenarios like these are pretty common. Even Henry Matisse and Pablo Picasso shared a competative dialogue throughout the 1920s-30s as each man tried to prove that he was #1 in the art world.

The funny thing is I remember seeing a Source mag cover with Jay-Z, DMX and Ja-Rule all posing in the same pic. They were calling themselves "Murder Inc." or something. Now DMX doesn't like Ja. Ja hates X. And Roc-a-fella, according to the MTV article, the Roc-a- fella camp doesn't like X either.

Honestly, I think Nas is a superior lyricist, more advanced and introspective than Jay-Z. But underneath all the tough talk about sending kids to their graves, these guys are all probably big softies. They all just want to sell a million copies and they know beef gets everyone's panties wet. Jay-Z just eeked his way out of that stabbing indictment. Now he's on probation for 3 years, so we KNOW he's not serious when he yells "murder."

If Nas is smart, and we know he is, he'll use this beef thing with him, Mega, Freestyle, Jigga, and whoever else to sell units like crazy and maybe launch a Stillmatic tour or something. Either way, I'll bet Nasir and Shawn will laugh about this whole thing over some beers at Nas's home 10 years from now.

KoolLou

"We had words, cause the best is supposed to clash at the top." -- Nas, "We Will Survive"

-- Lou (lsc21@mediaone.net), October 25, 2001.

"This be the realest shit I ever wrote..."

Some of this will be real, some of it exaggerated. You be the judge.

First of all, "lox," I can tell you're about 16 by the way you phrase your arguments and the fact that you diss every region except NY. That's the same narrow-minded thinking I had when I was 16 saying fuck the whole East Coast, back when Pac was alive. But then I actually listened to the East Coast music for myself, and I realized my southern roots could co-exist with NY hip-hop. Biggie has went from shit to The Shit in my mind simply because I actually peeped Life After Death for myself. Maybe if you peeped, for example, UGK and realized there's more to a song than lyrics, you could appreciate the production, and Pimp and Bun's flows. But whatever. I gives a fuck what you think about the south, 2Pac, or anything for that matter. And that's real.

Second, JS? You over analyze shit. Me and my boy argue all the time about who's better - Pac or Jay. Obviously, he says Jay. We both know we'll never change each other's minds, but we argue anyway cuz we both like to argue. And I'm in here just enjoying posting messages. I don't know you. I don't know "lox", and you cats don't know me. I gives a fuck what you think of me, cuz you don't know me. I'll come in here and say what I want, just because I like arguing. And if someone in here disses the South, or says Pac ain't the best, I'm gonna say something, cuz I'm in here having fun. And I don't read Clarence Darrow or Daniel Webster because I really don't give a rat's ass about either of them. Hope that answers that question. If you think I "worship" Pac, that's your biz. If I'm supposedly juvenile in my responses, that's your biz. If you think I can never be an attorney, that's your biz. I'll still be me after everything you post. And I'm still gonna do what I gotta do to be lawyer, regardless of your opinion. And that's real.

Third, if you got a problem with anything I say/have said about the World Trade Center, then get over it. I'll say what I goddam please, national tragedy or not. I've heard many songs with references to slavery, the Holocaust, starving kids in Africa, etc. but no one gets pissed. It may be taboo now, but in a year, some rapper will mention the September 11 attacks in their rap in a way that might not seem appropriate right now. I'm just early with mine. Innovative, if you will. Truth is, I like NY rap and NYC. But fuck it, "lox" dissed the South, and the only thing I know for a fact about him is that he is from NY. So I gotta fuck with him. And what's the big thing in NY? The WTC. So fuck it, I'll let "lox" know that whatever his punk ass says about the Dirty South, unlike the World Trade Center, we're still standin. His punk ass better go find some anthrax to play with. Yeah, I said it. And that's real.

Fourth, if takin rhymes from Pac and reworkin them is something a 12 year old does, then that remark about Vaseline and 2Pac's poster (implying I have homoerotic thoughts about Pac) was what? 13 year old shit? You got me beat by one year? Damn, you got me. Really though, the gay references are a lot more played than recycling rap verses. And that's real.

Fifth, for that Rap Sucks cat, I got two words for him: ya mama. And that's real.

Finally, anybody got something to say to me, I'll be happy to respond because like Chris Tucker (impersonating Scarface) said in Money Talks "I do this shit for fun, man!" Since quoting rappers is lame, I'll quote a pro wrestler in The Rock: "Just Bring It." And that's real. Bitches.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 27, 2001.

And another thing "lox" bitch, Jordan could have been born in Brooklyn, the Bronx, Timbucktu, Mars, ya mama's house, wherever. He still came down south and that's where he cultivated his game.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 27, 2001.

Gay Jay sucks, DMX sucks and no one should cop his new album. Rap today is at an all time low. Most the shit that comes out is pop as hell. Its like the damn Backstreet boys started rappin. Ja is one of the worst rappers out every song he does has a bitch in it, he can't do shit on his own. I wanna see some hard rappers, instead of most of these pussies that act like they thugs but rap like queers. Its like when D12 said "most y'all sound like Jigga but act like Pac" Jigga's a fukin homo ass pussy. Yo I find myself downloading songs from the mid 90's when rap was really crackin. Some of those artists are still around but now they suck. Nowadays we got fags like cash $ actually doin good in this rap game, I mean how dumb are some of u fuckers that you'll spend money on niggaz that put no creativity or effort into anything. They're lyrics suck dick and I'm suprised but they actually spend time writnig them, I would never have thought that they actuall wrote until I heard them freestyle. Let me tell you that was the worse thing I've ever sat through in my life I was reachin for anything that would cut my fukin wrist. They're fukin illiterate sonsa bitches. I think we need to raise our standards as rap fans. If somethins wack as hell don't but it, if your favorite mc is comin out w/ some shit and u know its his 3rd album of the year and its gonna be garbage, don't fukin buy it. the rap game is hurt as hell right now and basically we're to blame cause we support niggaz that aint puttin any effort into shit. They shit on a cd and we buy it, meanwhile they think they actually did an ok job because their sales are still high so they continue to make half ass albums w/ little to no effort cause they think they're just as good as they used to be.We got mad pull over this, we need to open our damn eyes and realize that we got some fukin power. we should boycott some of these niggaz, most of these niggaz and raise the fukin bar. If we don't the game will continue to be pop as hell and we'll still be sittin back wakin it talkin bout if Gay Z's bitch ass is better than people like Pac who actually wrote and put mad effort into shit, or BIG or Mos Def or any real niggaz. Every rapper's gonna have a flaw or 2 but we can't let fags rule the idustry.

-- Karl (KrazyKarl_33@hotmail.com), October 27, 2001.

I haven't really seen too much on here lately that I really agree with or support. However, Karl has spoke the truth. I feel similar, but I believe he has taken it to the extreme. Nevertheless, I agree with the man's point. Rap is terrible right now. We got maybe a hand full of quality rappers today, but overall, rap is on it's last leg. Ja, and Nelly and cuz who raps about area codes... that's what we got y'all. Best believe my money doesn't go toward that. Even the people who were hot back in the day have slipped, but that's expected in a certain way; some say you can't be the best forever. Point is, if rap doesn't change soon then we are all gonna be forced to pump the oldies, like Karl said, or some will just go buy Black Rob's "Whoa" or Cash Money's "Hotgirl" and be content with that. Don't get me wrong, I have "Blueprint" and I like Eminem, but they aren't bringing me subjects I can relate to and it seems that many of their rhymes lack effort. It sounds good, but after a while, I see myself wanting to hear "Me Against the World," or something similar. I'm not saying all rap has to be deep or on the level of Pac, but show me some effort. Snoop's first CD wasn't all that deep and NWA's work, but I liked them, I could listen to that. But now...I don't know. I don't think a boycott is gonna work because a lotta peeps buying today's rap don't even know what rap used to be; they don't know what the are missing, but I feel your anger. I feel that all the way. I don't wanna hear the nonsense that Bleek spits or the 3 six crew, but that's what I see as today's norm. Qoolout P.S. Let's try to get this debate back to rap.

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 27, 2001.

NONE of these rappers ever put food on my table.... so f*ck all of them.

-- REALITY (wake_up@all.yall.muthas), October 27, 2001.

I agree with Karl about most of his shit. But I really felt him about mid 90s rap. That was the peak of rap. I have so many CDs from 1993- 1996 and they are all tight. Now, rap is kind of watered down because for some reason, people don't feel thugs anymore. It's not OK to rap about blowin a nigga away over drugs while you run from the police and blast back. Why? I love gangsta rap! That's why the mid 90s was so tight. Everybody rapped about starving and drugs and murder. People say that's bullshit, but if you keep it on wax, it's cool with me. I ain't gon lie, I like Three 6 and Cash Money. Lyrically, they ain't all that, but I like their beats and production, cause I'm a "bass" head. That's another reason I like mid 90s rap. The production (in my opinion) was a lot more grimey. I love that shit. But unfortunately grimey doesn't sell, so people have to put out pop bull for grandmas to get some loot. I mean, if you do that, that's yo biz. Still, I long for the mid 90s rap. That 3-4 year period was just pure heaven for me. Oh well. I guess I'll just have to throw in an old Pac CD or Southernplayalistic or fuck it, I might throw on No Limit Soldiers just so I can jump around! I'm out. RIP mid 90s rap...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 27, 2001.

'whoa' is tight.

-- ethan (ethanp@bellsouth.net), October 28, 2001.

You can like "Whoa" all you want to. That's your right. I'm just saying that that is the type of music that gets the number 1 spot, because there are few good songs out there. I'm not feeling that song, for many reasons. 1. It hardly rhymes; the man is just talking, 2. What in the world is his point? And since I'm on the subject, what is the point of this other stuff out here? Izzo. It makes me nod my head, but can I get a few songs that makes me think? Even Destiny's Child "Say my Name" has a point. Holla

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

Yo, I'm new to this shit. I'd just like to say, No disrespect to you 2Pac or Biggie fans, they were great, but their dead and sooner or later, a more modern nigga would have surpassed their accomplishments and then they would have been the newest greatest emcee. So why can't it be Jay-Z? No one even Pac has been as concistant on every level. From owning your own record company, clothes line, toping the charts, holding hits down every summer, and even lyrical talent. That's all I had to say about that.

However, does anyone know if that shit about Jigga & Big Pun was true or not?

Somebody Holla Back!

-- Deshaun (Giphetto@aol.com), October 28, 2001.

yo on da real, owning a record label, clothing line and toppin da charts aint what makes u a good rapper. thats just what makes u more money. clothing lines and shit is whats commercialized da industry. and u can't just say someone woulda passed BIG and Pac up like its a fact. the only thing that coulda happened if they were still around is they woulda held the level high enough to wipe out all the bitch ass mcs or they woulda eventually played themselves and joined alot of da other niggas that fell off. and Gay z is not tight lyrically. i can't lie wen he first came out he was str8 but not no more, not 4 awhile and he is ok lyrically, thats it there are much much better lyricists out there than that fag. even on NAS's week cds he still kicks some descent lyrics, he just ain't sold as much as J cause he never went str8 pop till his last album which was so not him and so garbage, but he still a better lyricist and he isn't even great. on the real if u want lyrics cop em, royce da 5'9, mos def, canibus, and some of these other niggaz wen they was real. i like to bump some shit sometimes like the next guy, but i don't appreciate it as real quality rap, i just look at is as somethin to make my trunk rattle and damage my ears a lil bit. 3-6 is possible the worst lyrically, every song is almost exactly the same, but every song bumps like a motha fuker, so i play them every once in awhile, and thats cool but we can't let ourselves think that its any good 4 anything other than that.

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

Like Sterling, I've noticed that there are a lot of people who post here but don't post anywhere else on ILM. I encourage you to post on other threads too, there are thousands of them, and I'm sure some of you would have lots to say. Here are links to just a few related to hip hop (though there's no reason you should only write about hip hop; jump in on any topic you like).

Here's a link for one on NWA, here's one for Roll up leg of your pants, here's one for OutKast vs. Goodie Mob, here's one for Bounce/Cash Money, here's one for hip hop vs. rock, to get your blood boiling, and one for hip hop slang. There are lots more.

And here's the one for the I Love Music board in general, which you can also get to with a link at the start of this thread.

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), October 28, 2001.

Ilove hip-hop, but don't tell me that is the only type of music you clowns listen to...How old are you kids anyway??...Hillis, you wanna be a lawyer but you still listen to that Thug shit, time to grow up a little man!!!...pick up some Jazz Cd's or Jamiroqui if you like beats...and if you do respond try not to curse, we'll put you on a program, cause you know you wont be able to curse in the courtroom, so try to practice, and stop giving us qoutes from rappers or wrestlers-thats even worse, but if that is how far your level of thinking has bought you, so be it...just another lost mind...-Manny Guevara....Hasta La Victoria Siempre

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@homail.com), October 28, 2001.

1st of all, why do peeps feel the need to post lines saying that "rappers never did anything for them," "or we seem to involved in rap" or "blah blah blah?" Okay. If you don't like rap or don't wanna read our opinions, then be out. People act like they are above us because we like rap and know many details about it. This is a subject that we want to discuss and this is the forum for it. Stop faking like you all are superior just because we know more about this art form than you do. And I'm talking to whoever feels that I'm talking to them. Secondly, Jigga can have all that other stuff, record company, clothing line, whatever... at the end of the day it doesn't make him a better rapper or a worse rapper...as far as rapping goes, those elements mean nothing. Furthermore, I don't know how well his clothing line is doing, but hardly NO ONE where's that bull over here in D.C. It's not really even in any stores and that's fine with us. Also, does he have his own record company? Dash and Biggs and some others- don't they call the shots too? I'm not trying to sound like a Jay hater, but he's not really impressing me with all that secondary stuff. And maybe someone else would have been able to pass Pac, but I doubt it because, no one has done it yet. Jigga is at the top, but look at the comp. Remember when the Rockets were NBA champs 2 years st8? Where was the comp? (No disrespect to y'all Houston fans) Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

Hey Qoolut or whatever you call yourself, are you a panzy? Yousound like a bitch with all this is "our forum and our opinions, your like a little girl chatting about "Days of Our Rappers Lives". Congratulations that your from the D.C. area, were gonna put you on that program with that Hillis character, youll start on the Stupid Line and work your way up, o.k.??......Manny Guevara....Hasta La Victoria Siempre

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@homail.com), October 28, 2001.

First off, I gots to agree with my man qooloot about these people trying to act like they are superior to us because we know more about hip hop then they do. Hell, if we knew who every damn classical composer there was, we would be considered cultured geniuses. But just beacuse we know about this african-american based music called hip-hop, its considered "childish" and we need to "grow up." That is the very problem we have today in this dayand age. Anything created by blacks is considered inferior or of less importance than something created by whites. Like classical music, hiphop is a creation with deep cultural roots. And to diss hiphop is to diss the culture of a peoples who have been an intergral part of this world that we live in. I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't listen to other types of music, but still, don't diss the music of my peoples. Second, I must also agree that the period between 1988-1996 was when hiphop was in its purest form. Back before 1994, almost every artist that came out had some kind of social or political message. Until the advent of gangsta rap, hiphop took on a very analytical stand point. After gangsta rap came out hiphop went on a steady decline to become the bling-blining, Rolley flashin, money spendin crap it is today. Not to say that all of todays artists are crap (Check out Pharoh Monch, Talib Kweli, Common, Cormega, (pre '96) Nas, Outkast, etc..) Rap has seriously deteriorated from what it once was to what it is today. I think the main problem with rap is that before its success, rap was trying to change the world. But as soon as rap took over the world, it has stopped trying to change the world. My final point is that, I am a 24 year old black male in medical school studing to become a cardiovascular surgeon. All of you idiots who think everybody on this forum is just abunch of mindless, immature idiots with nothing better to do need to go do one thing......go fuck yourself. Peace out to all my all my fellow hiphop lovers.

-- Bwrecks (buzz@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

Manny, the courtroom is just like being around my mother. I can stop cursing when I want to. I don't need the program, but thanks for your help. But I am grown-up. That's why I'll listen to "Thug shit" if I want to without worrying about what some bastard I've never before thinks about it. And there's a lot of grown men and women who will do the same. And that's real. Bitch.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 28, 2001.

Hey Bwrecks or 'studing' to be in medical school guy, you forgot the 'y' but I'm sure that was just a 'mistook', right??? No one is knocking your beloved Hip-Hop...God knows I like Hip-Hop, but really, is Nas gonna be a 40yr old rapper talking about shooting gats or are you gonna be 30 and still listening to that Gansta Non-sense...why dont you pick up a The Roots Cd or bump some Tribe, De La, get over the Menace to Society days, it was cool when we were 16 and smoking 8 blunts a day, but your gonna be a surgeon for crying out loud..I know you don't need me to tell you this, well then again, maybe you do...I hope you are not lying to us, about Medical school?? are you?? cause we'll be watching you....Hasta La Victoria Siempre...Manny Guevara..

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

LOL. You wanna diss me (Manny Granny, or whatever you call yourself) and the best you can come up with is "panzy"? I don't even wanna step down to your ignorant level, but I will cuz. First of all, you are saying nothing; not a thing. Do you disagree with a point I made? If so, say so. In your entire stupor, you just babbled about nonsense and your fictitious program (also nonsense). Say something that makes sense so I can debate it. You seem to lack the skills to speak your mind. Second, the truth hurts, right? You are not above anyone in the world dogg. Get away from the attitude that says "rap is nothing and I am above all hip-hop heads." Bwrecks already killed what you were saying and I couldn't put it better myself. And I didn't call your name out because I figured you could do a self analyzes and it would be your business and yours only. It's better to have peeps think that you are a fool, than to speak foolishness and remove all doubt. Thirdly, I meant what I said this is "our forum and our opinions." The problem is peeps like you come on our forum and get us off the topic with ignorance and hate. And I never said anything about "Days of Our Rappers Lives" I don't know where you got that. You lost me even more (if possible) with that line. Yeah I'm from D.C....I was making a point when I said it...what were you doing when you mentioned it? I tried to take the topic back to rap, but Manny wouldn't let me. And I don't wanna do anymore disses either, but if he forces my hand, I don't wanna hear that I was too vicious either. Manny you lack logic, holla when you get some. And go head and respond so you can prove my point futher. bwrecks, I feel ya, holla.

Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

Hillis, Congratulations!! You can now got to step 2...Now, doesn't that feel good, well, you did say 'bitch', but that is in the dictionary so we'll let that one slide...What's with that: 'And That's Real', who are you Bryant Gumble?? You cockroach.....Hasta La Victoria Siempre..Manny Guevara

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), October 28, 2001.

Well to get back to the original topic at hand, STILLMATIC will be dropping 12/18/01. I heard a few tracks already and it sounds like Nas is headed back to his infamous street poetic days of ILLMATIC. I garuntee all questions will be answered when Nas drops this lp. Jay Z "lets get ready to rumble......." 1

-- The Best (Nchekwube@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

I agree with "The Best". Jigga got off on the Blueprint. And I hate J-Z. He caught Nas and Prodigy lovely. People were sayin Nas couldn't come back. But, If you peeped on Stillmatic the song. He said his next albums are going to be masterful. Here's the dynamics. Nas fans are on a quest to hear true hip hop and has faith in him to bring back illmatic. Hov fans are people who respect hip hop (sort of) but measure success on fame and records sold. Nas wanted some of the fame badly and compromised a couple of albums to do it. Only to realize that the sucess he had was residue off illmatic. It was written and I Am.... were quality albums, they just came after illmatic, which was CLASSIC! I didn't care for Nastradamus. But Nas Realized that he had to be who he was and commercial compromising work for other rappers but not him. He said in "Rise and Fall" Nas Escobar is laid to rest. Hopefully Nastradamus is too. Going back to Rakim's old beat gave him that old vibe that puts him back to his old self and I think it will level jigga's ego. Lyrically he don't want it with Nasty. He's STILLMATIC!!!!!!!!!

-- SecondSage (secondsage@yahoo.com), October 29, 2001.

I'm feelin' your sentiment Second Sage! December 18 will be a big day in hip hop. Hey Hillis, I think you're alright dog. You seem to attract much drama and although I don't agree with some of the things you write, I respect your opinions and I'm down with the way you express them. This is a hip hop forum about the most dynamic and influential music of our generation. Let's keep it that way. All them other racists, haters and cynics can write what they want, but recognize that the majority of posts on this thread have been thoughtful, insightful and well written. All the dumb shit has been written by the aforementioned bigots and morons. As far as Jay Z goes, his flow and delivery have always been average. He's made a name for himself by mixing witty lyrics with dope beats with a pop sensibility. Ain't nothing wrong with that. He gained a larger audience (16 year old suburban high schoolers) than he lost (hip hop purists). Regardless, I still like him once in a while when I feel like bouncin'. Hip hop might be stagnant now, but at least it's diverse. For every Common and Mos Def out there spittin' knowledge and depth, there's Petey Pablo and Ludacris breakin' your neck. If my collection only contained shit that was deep ass or raw, I'd go outta my mind. A little mindless shit from Cash Money or Big Tymers is not bad once in a while. At the very least, it'll make you appreciate shit like "Illmatic" or "Paid in Full".

-- Dmac (Mccarthy7@yahoo.com), October 29, 2001.

Manny, just because you're Hispanic doesn't mean you have to be like Scarface, you cockroach. Hillis 3000 AKA Bryant Gumbel 3000 signing off - and that's real. Bitch.

P.S. I wanna give a shout out to my man Dmac for being open-minded and having something thoughtful to say without having to diss a coast, rapper, style, etc.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 29, 2001.

I really really love Nas and I feel that he is not recognized like he should. He is the most prolific rapper. he does not want to go commercial because that not be fair to true Nas fans, he wants to keep it real. As far as the beef thing goes don't we have better things to worry about? (Sept 11) But when Dec 18 hits we will have to see who will be the last man standing.

-- Tiandra Miller (teeZphiB@yahoo.com), October 29, 2001.

yo i agree and support that nasty is a way better rapper than gay j but he's slipped up. Tiandra sayin that Nas has stayed true and has never tried to go commercial is garbage, check out his last lp w/ the frikin pop shit on there. i like nas he could kill alot of people lyrically especially j but he has gone commercial w/ his last album and that oochawally shit. i do hope and fell that he's back from that terrible turn down the pop alley and back to the realness.

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

Would I be less cooler if I spoke in proper English?? Which most of you seem to lack the knowledge of..So let me be down and kick it in words you might understand....Check it, Bryant Gumble (Hillis) your str8 up a fool, with an obsession of Dec 18th and Nas's joint dropping, why dont you pick up a book while you wait...Tiandra, how much do you really really love Nas Escobar?? What is he trying to be the Columbian drug lord like Pablo?? I'm not even going to respond to Qooluot until he learns how to spell....its Analysis. not Analyzes, you monkey...Hey keep it real, cause I know you maricones(half-wits), to be polite, are keeping it REAL STUPID!!!...HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE....MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), October 29, 2001.

Manny, if you keep posting messages here, the INS is gonna realize you're here without the proper visas. Hope you find your green card, you cockroach. And that's real. Bryant Gumbel 3000 signing off...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 30, 2001.

Hey Manny! For someone who professes to be an "expert" in the English language, I'd like to point out some rather elementary mistakes on your last posting. First of all "less cooler" is incorrect. It should be "less cool". Secondly, ending a sentence with a preposition is a big no-no, as you did when you wrote "...lack knowledge of..." Addtitionally, it is Gumbel, not "Gumble". Lastly, you forgot to include an apostrophe in the word "don't". I'm sure these are just minor oversights on your part. By the way, there is no doubt that you are entitled to write whatever you like on this thread. We welcome your ignorant and racist remarks, as they serve as a reminder why we have border patrol in this country. As a person with Hispanic blood in me, I must state that your are an embarrasment to Hispanics and Latin Americans that read these postings.

-- dmac (mccarthy7@yahoo.com), October 30, 2001.

Manny, look man, whatever you tryin to start is not necessary. I can speak and type proper english but I'm not going to respect english like that. English is a bastardized language and has no pure form. Back centuries ago, english was as complex as spanish and french with variations of verbs and nouns. But the common people of that time made it simple. We speak this language how we want to. Who knows, it might be standard eventually. English is not the original language of my people, while you're at it. English was forced on my ancestors who spoke in rhythmic pattern. The language of our ancestors flows. We also used to communicate by drums, and all that was taken from us by force. But, we've found many ways to make this languge fit. Over centuries we've found ways to sing it. Now comes the new way, Rappin it. Hip hop is a way to bring the rhythmic pattern back to English. It's also bringing back the drums. The true essence of hip hop is not the lyrics but how the lyrics flow together and go along with the beat. Maybe that's what scares all you hip hop haters!!! The culture is coming back!!!!!!!!! That's why hip hop was under attack long b4 it beame gangsta. But anyway, to compare and contrast. Nas, at his fullest potential, is a master lyricist. As long as his production fits him, he is unmatched. Give Jigga credit for **knowing** how to lay down tracks. Not to many show that ability. This compensates for his average lyrics. But, even Jigga can sneak some tight lines every now and then. I still don't like where he stands. But back to you manny. We speak however we want on this post. It doesn't have to be "proper" in order for everyone on here to understand what is said- which is the overall goal. If "intellects" can't keep up then they need to learn how WE speak. Oh yeah, I have a degree in Civil Engineering and have passed an 8-hour exam to complete stage 1 of 2 to being a professional engineer. So study hip-hop for what it is, an art!!! Regardless of the government/industry perpetrated Gangstaism in place to destroy it.

HIP HOP NATION FOREVER!!!!!!!

-- SecondSage (secondsage@yahoo.com), October 30, 2001.

Manny, I was wondering something about you. In your "English as a Second Language class," why did they give you an insane pride in spelling, but leave you with a complete lack of grammatical skills? For example, you can only use one or three question marks (not two). And then there's "Bryant Gumble (Hillis) your str8 up a fool." Not only is the sentence grossly ambiguous, it's "you're!" It's not "your." Of course, this is followed by "What is he trying to be the Columbian drug lord like Pablo??" Here, we see the notorious doubled question marks. The sentence also has no grammatical base. The last straw is the failure to separate "maricones" and "half wits". It should be "...maricones (half-wits)..." Work on it, amigo. I'm sure you'll be speaking understandable English in no time. You cockroach. And that's real. Bryant Gumbel 3000 signing off...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 30, 2001.

Hey. I'm interested to hear what ya'll really think of 'Dre as an MC. Obviously he's on point when it comes to producing and harnessing new talent, but I've always thought he was a bit underrated as a lyricist and rapper. Then again, my tastes have always gravitated to the melodic, straight foward west coast flow, as opposed to the more intricate and creative, though sometimes more offbeat, east coast style. By the way, I don't mean offbeat in a negative way either.

-- dmac (mccarthy7@yahoo.com), October 30, 2001.

Once again Manny you are saying nothing. Everyone has already pointed out your ignorance and they have left me with almost nothing to criticize. Also, I try not to criticize fools, but since you brought it to me…here goes: 1st of all, I ordered you to respond and prove you lack knowledge. You did both. Then you say you won't address Qoolout until he learns how to spell. Okay, YOU misspelled Qoolout and by saying you won't respond, YOU RESPONDED. Cuz, get some sense. You are making it too easy; you're embarrassing yourself. Do you care? Just go ahead and bow out now; have some self-respect. And you still are faking like you are a God. I told you before, you are above no one. And Dmac, don't feel embarrassed. Every race has a few ignorant peeps. It just so happens that Manny seems to be an example of the extreme. Back to you, Manny. When you post again, before you post, sit down and try to come up with a point. Try to say something that (God forbid) makes sense and let us get back to the topic of rap. We can even discuss rap haters…Would that make you behave? My bet is you'll ignore all the advice you've been given and you'll just post some more nonsense, thus proving my point further. You know you want to, so go ahead and do it. Leap frog. LEAP

Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

not trying to sound totally ignorant, but what does "HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE" mean? didn't have the energy to look it up.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

who are you Bryant Gumble??

That's fantastic. I love you guys.

-- Ally (garance80@yahoo.com), October 30, 2001.

YO AM BACK UP IN THIS BITCH.AND AND IVE SEEN SOME STUPID ASS SHIT SINCE I LEFT.ANYWAY I DONT WANNA DO THAT FIGHTING SHIT I DID WITH HILLIS ALONG TIME AGO THATS GAY.IF YOU LOVE THAT DIRTY SOUTH MUSIC I AINT GONNA HOLD IT AGAINST YOU.BUT PLEASE DONT TALK ABOUT THE EAST COAST CUZ THERE ACTUALLY RUNNING IT.ANYWAY THIS AINT A SPELLING BEE SO WE DONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT WERE WRITING IN THIS JOINT.AND ACTUALLY AM NOT 16 I JUST DONT LIKE THE SOUTHS STYLE.LETS JUST SAY AM LEGAL.I WANT TO POINT ONE THING OUT NAS,PRODIGY,THE LOX,FAT JOE,JAYO FELONY AND THE REST OF THEM ARE GONNA BRING DOWN GAY-Z OR H TO THE IZZO M TO THE IZZO(HOMO)AND HIS LITTLE ROCAFELLA EMPIRE DOWN.AND NAS WILL BE CROWNED THE KING OF HIP HOP ON DEC 18 WITH JADAKISS COMING IN SECOND.DONT FRONT I KNOW YALL LIKE MY BOY JADAKISS STRAIGHT OUTTA THE LOX.CUZ NONE OF YALL BETTA.ONE.

-- LOX (HOT97KID@HOTMAIL.COM), October 30, 2001.

First of all, LOX, we know it's not a spelling bee, but cuz opened the door, so we had to call him on that. And second, you are 100% right. I'm feeling Jada more than any of them other so called rappers. Did y'all hear the remix he did for Mary? "We can hit the dance floor now, you ain't gotta wait/ We can take this outside, you ain't gotta hate/...And we don't need no hateration/ Somebody better calm dude down, cause the eight'll lace him. LOL. I'm not feeling the entire song, but come on Jada is bringing it. Ask Beans. Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

yo I understand that this ain't a spelling bee and u were callin' this nigga out but lets drop the grammar and spelling lessons I hear enough in school anyway. I'm a spelling bee winner like 3 years in a row but when I come here its entertainment not a research paper, lets just have fun and not worry about that, this is about rap and we all know rap ain't grammatically correct. Also Gay-z is done and alot of niggaz is better, even Jada is better but personally I don't feel kiss and thats just my steelo. I think he sounds to soft on the mic I always hated the damn LOX so I have to hate on Jada do, he doin his thing but I don't give him much props, he ain't all that lyrically just allright which is fine if you back it up with a dope voice or delivery but he doesn't he's week. Theres still a lot a niggaz better even in the state raps in now. I ain't startin beef or tryin to piss peeps off thats just my opinion and I think I'm entitled to it if I have some evidence to back it up so anyone wants to respond go for it but do it in a way that is informative and proves a point and not dissin a personal belief just because it differs from others. I think that this page would be a lot better if peeps did that. Its about respect. Put the racism and ignorance to rest and get your point across with out insult then it might actually be accepted or taken to heart instead of str8 up rejected cause of a diss. I ain't tryin to be Mr. Rogers or nuttin but lets just discuss and debate and not worry about petty shit. God Bless.

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

It's dropped as far as I'm concerned. But I just wanna say I didn't make it into a grammar lesson, if your statement was meant for me, Karl. But on that note I've been trying to get the discussion back to rap and maybe we can do that now. Also, I would never just diss a person because he/she had a different opinion. Scroll up and you'll see that. I've been disagreeing with peeps on here left and right for the longest, and that's all it was, no beef, none of that nonsense. Anyway, I understand you not liking Jada, but tell me who it is you are feeling. I haven't been able to get in contact with a soul who has that first L.O.X. Badboy cd so I can't speak on that, but he brought it on every double RR guest spot and on Vol. 1 and 2. And you know I'm feelin' "We are the Streets." Honestly, I expected his solo thing to be better than it was, but he still flowed better than Jay, in my opinion of course. I know there are many Jigga fans who disagree but I say Jada's Flow was better overall, but Jay had the better beats and hooks maybe, thus that is one reason why some are feeling Hov over my man, but to each his own. Lastly, I like how Jigga didn't have a lot of others on his CD, I think Jada should have done that and more of the other "quality" rappers too. All those weak peeps on your CD makes the stock go down. I'll leave with a quote from Kiss: Chicks that I went to school with, a seed now/You know Kiss, stocky bald head, light brown/ Ice down, in my roll look like nighttown/ To all y'all lil' Jada's for the 1000th time/ I don't recall hittin' your moms or writin' your rhymes/ And just because you might've seen me, in and outta your house/ Ain't no way she gonna have a baby outta her mouth. LOL. HE BE FLOWIN' Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

ok, i guess no one took me seriously. really, what does "HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE" mean?

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

JAY Z IS THE MOTHAFUKKIN MAN NEXT TO BIG. I MEAN NAZ AINT TOUCHIN HIM FOR REAL. JADA HE'S AIIGHT YEAH HE'S GOT SKILL BUT JAY-Z's THAT DEAL AND ALL THE OTHER WACK ASS FAGGOTS JUST WANT HIS CHROMY WHEELS. LEAVE MY MAN ALONE LET HIM DO HIS THING. HATERS COME A DOME A DOZEN. THE WORLD GONE STILL DO A 360 WHETHER YOU FUKK WIT HIM OR NOT.

-- QUIANA JACKSON (CHANTREL007@HOTMAIL.COM), October 30, 2001.

I don't like gay-z but that don't mean I'm hating it means I think he's garbage I don't want his damn rims or $ he plays that shit out talkin about it so damn much. I got rims and a system I don't need gay-z's bitch ass $. I dislike that queer cause he has a lot more potential than he puts out, he's fake as hell. that bitch made nigga could get slapped up by the real mcs out there. O and another thing. I was so pissed that slim did a song on blueprint "renegade". Slim is slippin big time by messin w/ pop ass fake rappers like j he needs to stick to the royce the 5'9's and d12's and dre's out there. he was the realest but if he doesn't watch it he will play himself.What does anyone else think about this situation?

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 30, 2001.

Yo Karl. Em did dat shit wit Gay-Z on "Renegades" to prove exactly what you were talkin' 'bout, dog. Gay-Z is garbage in terms of lyrical flow and timing, especially when paired up wit someone wit razor sharp skillz like Em. Slim straight up scorched dat track, effortlessly, while Jigga stumbled through with his trademark weak- ass, crackling, Sesame Street voice. But you know what, I really don't hate Gay-Z, for real. I think his rapping talent and contribution to hip hop is overrated, but he's got skilz on the business side of the game and puts out some gay happy shit that at makes folks bounce.

-- Maz (moto99@excite.com), October 31, 2001.

cool I could respect that and pretty much agree. Em did blaze that frikin track. and I think thats the main reason i dislike gay j because he's so damn overrated and doesn't deserve his props.

-- karl (krazykarl_33@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

hey qoolout or any other jadakiss fans! what album would you recommend to someone who hasn't really been into kiss in the past? would it be something from the lox or his solo joint? i think his track off of funkmaster flex's 60 minutes is hot.

-- maz (moto99@excite.com), October 31, 2001.

Hey maz, if U wanna hear his best work, listen to the L.O.X CD, "We are the Streets." He's coming hard on there, but like I said before, RR Vol. 1 and 2 are nice too. But I think his best showcase has been on "We are the Streets." I expected more from his solo thing, but I was still happy with it; speaking of that, see if you can listen to "Kiss is Spittin" or "Feel Me" from his solo joint. If you are mainly into beats and tight hooks, I admit that Jada probably ain't the one for you, (Swizz only did two tracks, I think)but if you wanna hear some well written lyrics or just some witty funny stuff, he's the man. Holla, and let me know what U think. P.S. His diss towards Beanie was hot too.

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Yo thanks qoolout! I'm definitely gonna check out "We Are The Streets". For everyone else, what's hot right now? I picked up DMX's latest joint and feel the first half of the album is straight. The second half is pretty disappointing, especially the shit with Stephanie Mills and Faith Evans. Nothing against the sisters, but as most of you know, that R&B chick shit is played out, especially for someone like DMX. So I'm wonderin' what y'all got in your cd players, stereos, etc? I've been listening to Nas' "I Am" a lot lately and if you cut out about 5 or 6 weak ass tracks, that album would be pretty fuckin' tight. It's just a few filler garbage tracks like KISSING and Dr. Knockboot that bring it down a few notches.

-- maz (moto99@excite.com), October 31, 2001.

Lot of stuff to respond to.

A) Dre as an MC is horrible. I realized this when on "Nuthin But A G Thang" this fool had the nerve to say, "never slip, cuz if I slip, then I'm slippin." Boo! Then further proof is that Jay and Em ghost write for him. Dre's flow is so weak. He may have started this rap shit, but he sucks on the mic.

B) As of now can't nobody from the East Coast with Jay. Jada, DMX, Nas, none of them. However, Eminem laced Renegade up 10 times better than Jay, and Jay's verse so tight. But Em took better lyrics and even better flow and just served Jay on Jay's on album. So while people wonderin who the King of NY/East Coast is, they're forgetting that shit don't matter cuz Eminem is better than all those cats and anybody who can eat up Jay is #1 in my book.

C) How many times is Nas gonna drop an album and all you people who fiend for Illmatic gonna keep saying he's gonna be back on top again? Look, Illmatic was tight. It Was Written had some quality tracks. I Am was a tad pop, and Nastradamus was just straight boo-boo. I mean, Nastradamus was the epitome of a tight rapper fallen of. That shit was so garbo. So now all of a sudden Nas will regain his stature. It's possible, but I say don't bet on it.

D) I ain't tryin to hate, but why do people expect shit from Jadakiss? That nigga ain't all that. That's why Jay-Z's remix ate Jada's up. That nigga's waek. Beanie Sigel's flow and delivery is so much better than Jada's it's not funny. Jadakiss and the rest of the Lox need to retire. Everything out the Lox camp is straight counterfeit. They need to get they own style and stop trying to be Biggie Jrs.

E) See, lox. You say you don't want to argue with me, but then you try to slip in little remarks about NY runnin it. Do you not understand that Jay and Ja Rule are the only NY cats that could go platinum? The rest of the NY rappers are lucky to go gold. The South, however, is the place to be for platinum plaques. Where else can a fat white boy named Bubba with average skills go platinum? Down South, baby, because with our production skills, we turn anybody into a phenomenon. Anybody. Realize who really run it, "dunny."

F) Where's Manuel Guervera? "Hasta la Victoria siempre" literally means "Until the Victory always..." Now idiomatically, I'm at a loss. But just like his shit English, it makes no sense.

I'm out.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), October 31, 2001.

Hillis, i appreciate it. manny's disappeared, so i guess he's given up on his victory. now 3000, i totally agree with most of what you said. matter of fact just about everything you said. i don't make so much of a deal about goin platinum, but if you're in it for the fame-much of the south is using the correct formula. Jay is using the correct formula. Nas, i don't know what the hell he's been doin. true, he said he'd bring back "Nasty Nas" this time. but he's said that before. as i said earlier, won't believe it til i hear it. a couple of singles won't do. worst thing in the world is unrealized talent! the talent is definately there but.... lastly, i love and miss Pac, and i'm hesitant to say this to many of his fans, but we've got to move on. to say there will never be another, is like saying there will never be another Jordan. there won't be!! but there will be iverson's, vince carter's, tracy mcgrady's, and more hungry, talented cats who will leave there own mark. hip hop is not hardly gonna die with Pac and Big. and to be honest, jay is actin like shaq in this hip hop league. love him or hate him, he's MVP right now.

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

I feel you for the most part Hillis concerning your last post, but I gotta respectfully disagree with a few points. 1st of all, I'm sure more from the east have hit plat, besides Ja and Jay and I think Tim helped Bubba. But anyway, I don't think we can put much credit into sales anymore. We got downloading, bootlegging, etc; that will make 1 mill harder to reach. On the other hand Nelly sold a couple mill and he is hardly the best in my book, so sales mean close to nothing, if you ask me. Next, I guess we all know I'ma rep it for Jada. He is no Pac, but who is? I'm feeling him more than any other right now; and I never really felt Beans. I know some people listen to music for the beats, others for tight lyrics, and so on. Me, I like to hear stuff that makes you think, therefore I'm feeling Jada (Nas, & Em sometimes), sure he has a few party songs, but I don't think you'll catch him flowing about nonsense. He's deep at times, and when he's not deep, he's giving you wit and/or humor. Now those who listen for the tightest beats, may have to put in some Dre, because he ain't got the best flow, but he brings the beats/hooks. And to Maz, I agree that "I am" is a hot CD if you delete a few cuts. Lastly, I gotta say, yes Jay is at the top, but there isn't much to compete against right now. Time will tell if he can hold that spot. I doubt it, but time will tell. Another Jada quote, enjoy, LOL: For every check I deposit, it's just a new burner in the closet/And the big one'll kill you, ya brother and ya pops quick/Might take one slug to get y'all both/ Cuz muthafuc--, I'ma make sure I hit y'all close/And whoever's left guarenteed he gettin it all/Cuz he coulda ran when I was lickin' at y'all/I get rap money, plus I'm in the hood wit dimes/And I ain't got no felonies, I'm good wit crimes/ Not all dat wit macs, but I'm good wit nines/Great wit eights/ Dogg, I'll heat ya face/And I got a hungry lawyer that'll eat the case... Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Whats up Cheerleaders (Coolout with a Q, Bryant G, and the other monkey Don Was) I have been busy with work and Graduate study that I did not have a chance to retort, but I also want to be concise...Bryant G, as for your Green Card comment, being born and raised in Queens, NY qualifies me enough, but as stupid as most Americans are you would think of that...Qoolout, if your in school taking your Gen-Ed Req's. trying to major in Bus.AD. or Psych finish up your Tupac 101 class first before you ever want to debate with me...Don Was are you another African wannabe?? Most of you call yourselves Africans but you have never even been their...I worked in Mozambique for two years with the UNDP and have more knowledge of your cultural roots and that is sad!..When you children get older send me your C.V.'s, that's Curriculum Vitae for you idiots and if you really don't understand that it's called your resume.Don't put worked at KFC for 10 years and enjoy listening to Nas and DMX because they are real either..Well some of us have a Thesis to finish...HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE...MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.

Manny! Ese! I thought you bounced on us! So what's the graduate study in? How to sell strawberries on the side of the road more efficiently? How to safely cross the Rio Grande? Speedy Gonzalez vs. Cheech: Who's more like Tony Montana? Mariachi bands and taco cuisines - "la musica y la cena?" Good luck, you cockroach. And thanks for helping me with my C.V. I'll put I listened to Master P instead. And that's real. Bryant Gumbel 3000 signing off...

VIVA EL HIP HOP SIEMPRE!!!

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 01, 2001.

Hey, manny you forgot someone. You didn't respond to me. So what you been in Africa two years, you're probably part of the problem over there. Hiding your Racist commentry behind your education. All western education is, training you to think like the powers that be. No wonder you discredit hip hop, Hip Hop is out to break the status quo. Which means everything you value will not have as much weight. See, I read between the lines. I'll expose you. You won't respond to me because I break you're little myth of Hip Hoppers having nothing else. I have a degree just like you, b*tch!!! But I don't profile my education like that. All it's good for is showing the powers that be you've been trained to be obedient. You lap dog!!!!!! I've seen how educated fools are made. Hip Hop can stand on its own. We don't need to listen to anything else. We don't need your approval to be "cultured". Who's culture anyway??? Hip Hop is OUR culture. Assimilate or be out!!!

And Secondly, to who this may concern. True hip hoppers do not use record sales as a measuring stick. You can get away with beats, some of the time. You can get away with lyrics, most of the time. But never, I mean ever, say someone is great based on record sales. I have to tell you the truth, I wasn't really a Pac fan. I liked his very first album. And I liked his second to last. He would still be here but he let bishop get him killed. But I do think Pac and Big would have gotten the game straight if they were still here.

And Lastly, Nas has shown steps that he is trying to bring Nasty Nas back. He had the potential to be the Michael Jordan of Rap. Pac Wasn't!! Nas can just rebound and show you he one of the greatest. Over time you'll see He'll outshine Jay-Z. Emenem is Nice. I can't fromt. He will be the Elvis of hip hop!!!!

-- SecondSage (secondsage@yahoo.com), November 01, 2001.

hey y'all obviously ain't post in a while. So I am gonna get y'all up to speed. Jay's answer I know u mr. Nas the (fame)/but along with celebrity comes bout seventy shots to your frame/ nigga u's the (flame)/ you's the fag model for karl kani esco ads/went from Nasty Nas to Esco trash/had A spark when u started but now u just garbage/fell from top ten to not mentioned at all/ till ur bodyguards "Oochie Wallie verse is better than yours/ Matter fact you had the worst flow in the whole fuckin song/But I know the sun don't shine/if the son don't shine/That's why your (lame)/Career's come to an end/It only so long fake thugs can pretend/Nigga, You ain't live it/U witnessed it from your folks pad/Scribbled it in your notepad/ and created your life/I showed you your first tec/ On tour with Large Professor/then I heard your album about your tec/ on the dresser/So yeah I sampled your voice/You was using it wrong/You made it a hot line/I made itt a hot song/And you ain't get a coin nigga/You was getting fucked then/I know who I paid god/Serchlite publishing/Use your (brain)/You said "been in it 10"/I been in it 5/Smarten up Nas/4 albums in ten years/I can divide/ that's one let's say every 2/2 of them shit's were doo/One was ehhhhh/the other was Illmatic/That's a 1 hot album every 10 year average/And that's so (lame)/Nigga switch up your flow/your shit is garbage/what u trying to kick knowledge/Y'all niggas better learn to respect the king/Don't be the nest contestant on that Summer Jam screen.

respect the king

-- Kyle Bostic (k9_show@hotmail.com), November 01, 2001.

YO WHAT UP YALL.I JUST WANNA SAY THAT ALBUM SALES DONT DETERMINE IF YOUR THE GREATEST RAPPER OF ALL TIME CUZ JA-RULE AND NELLY WOULD BE THE BEST IF ALBUM SALES DETERMINED EVERYTHING.NELLY HIS SORRY ASS ALWAYS MAKING STRANGE ASS NOISES WHEN HE IS RAPPING LIKE IF HE IS GETTING RAPED,AND JA-RULE JUST TURNED R&B BECAUSE I LOVED HIS FIRST ALBUM BUT WHAN THAT 3:36 CAME OUT HIS ASS JUST SINGS NOW.AS FOR JADAKISS ALL I CAN SAY IS THE MAN IS NICE. MAYBE THERE TRYING TO BE BIGGIE JUNIORS BECAUSE THEY WERE WITH BIGGIE WHEN HE WAS AT HIS PRIME. AND BIG WAS THERE MENTOR.BUT ANYWAY I DONT KNOW WHY SOME OF YALL DONT FEEL HIM.I LIVE IN MIAMI WERE ITS USUALLY TRICK DADDY THERE LISTENING TO. BUT NOW PEOPLE ARE FEELING JADA THERE OPENING UP THERE EYES THAT THERE IS REAL HIP-HOP OUTSIDE THE SOUTH. AND ANOTHER THING YALL DONT GET IN A RAP DISSCUSSION WITH GIRLS CUZ THAT WILL PISS YOU OFF.ONE.

-- Lox (hot97kid@hotmail.com), November 01, 2001.

Manny, there u go again, spitin' nonsense. Dogg, you gonna have to say something that makes some type of sense if you want me to take you seriously. You know you like rap, otherwise you wouldn't be on here posting. Come on outta the closet. Is it you lack the skills to speak about the deep aspects of rap, or is it you just enjoy taking nonsense? You claim you are in school....Do you have a point? Manny, you still gotta convince me. Now do me a favor...post some more foolishness...I wanna see if you can out do the last piece of garbage you put on here. So once again, I order you to leap. LEAP Qoolout

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 01, 2001.

YO QOOLOUT YEAH IHEARD THE REMIX WITH MARY J ITS HOT I GOT IT ON MY FUNKMASTTER FLEX BIG TRUCK SERIES PART1

-- Lox (hot97kid@hotmail.com), November 01, 2001.

manny? not hardly worth it

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), November 01, 2001.

Second Sage, Here you go. You wanted to getin the mix and you have said nothing. You can join your cheerleader friends with all that "its our culture,our culture non-sense".keep it...As far as profiling my education, I said I grew up in Queens, all my degrees are from Universities in France, but you probably think that the best education only comes from your "great nation" the U.S...why dont you try learning a new language or travel a little bit, have a purpose in your life!! Make a difference!!-A Lifewithout a Cause, is a life without Effect...HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE....MANNY GUEVARA......oh yeah I forgot to mention the other monkeys but Im on the other side of the world, so I have some time, before you get up and listen to NAs's CD for the 885th time....

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 01, 2001.

Manny! I learned a new language. Listen: "Yo soy gato loco mio tuo espanol si vosotros ustedes. Me llamo computadora y el sabado es il buena suerte. Yo tambien nosotros hablara con russas y montanas. Mi amigo ser ir al cinema y cosas noches son la playa y par la plage. Hasta la victoria siempre!!!" That's for my boy, Manny. Bryant Gumbel know a lil sumthin, sumthin. My nickname at school is "El Nino." And for those of you who "no habla espanol," El Nino is Spanish for... THE NINO! And that's real. Bryant Gumbel 3000 signing off...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 02, 2001.

HAHAHAHA Gayz shit is fuckin garbage for real. i liked him before he started getting really cocky. his crew is bullshit, i dont think anyone here (sane anyways) could possibly imagine gayz,beanie bitch, and memphis ass cheek, chould ever win a battle against nas, jadakiss and prodigy. thats what i thought see. and probably the only reason why the dirty south is sellin is because they have nice beats and a catchable choras. gayz is going triple platinum and shit only because white boys trying to be cool dig him, ever since big pimpin id say. he dun got in some shit he cant dig himself out of. Nas,MOBB DEEP, LOX, Terra Squad, and the whole fuckin QB is gonna light his ass up. he only has beanie and memphis to back him up, i think DMX lost alot of respect for him going pop and all and Ja rule is ok but hes doing joints with j-lo then screaming the murder in the very next song, singing about cheating on his girl then turning around and singing i only think about you. and did any of you see gayz on BET lying his ass off about the whole beef shit? man its pathetic hes trying to make ppl not dig nas or p by saying they all just started attacking him lyricly and shit what a fucking pansy. got asked about the takeover song by free and responded "yeah um i was realeasing my emotions on that one song, i hope we can now respect eachother now" bullshit still trying to play as the nice guy. and BIGGIE is the king of newyork, now and forever but greatest alive in ny is Nas, you cant deny it. jayz hides behind good beats so people wont notice his wack ass rhymes, sorry gayz but timbaland's beats aint gonna get you outta this one.

-- Big Jon Stud (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 02, 2001.

I got a few things to say first JADA, JIGGA, and NAS have good qualities as MC's. But JADA dosn't change the style of his lyrics, by that I mean he takes a Timbo beat like "Nasty Girl" on his album and raps the same way he raps on "Kiss is Spitten" two totally different beats. And he follows the same bar rythem in each song.That is not nessesarly bad thing but the songs would be better if he followed the beat. Plus It is a quality that B.I.G and pac both had and they are the two best MC's of all time. Jigga did a good thing by going back to his roots with the "Blueprint." Big JAZ was the main factor behind his rythmical style on "Reasonable Doubt" and the goodfella's, godfather type style of gangster lyrics worked. The "Blueprint" had the slow soulful beats but the "Reasonable Doubt" type lyrics were not there. He needs to go back to the style that gave him popularity. Nas had my respect with "Illmatic" his usage of soulful old school beats and poetic form is what attrated so many people. But that was 1994 and the younger generation dosn't take notice to that style. Jay-z has a similar style but he change with the times. Nas is trying to do the same thing and it did not work with his last two albums.I think he can regain popularity by using his old style. There are some like myself that likes that type of style he uses, and me being 16 not every kid is looking for a crunked beat to party to.

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 02, 2001.

Yeah, I saw Jay on BET talking about these people are coming at him because he's on top. He was asked about the greastest rapper in his opinion. He said "If not me then who?" LOL whatever. So the host said "Well, besides you, who?" And he went with the bell out answer: B.I.G. Of course I say Pac, but we've been down that road. Did anyone see the new deathrow movie, "Welcome to Deathrow"? It's a new release at BlockBuster. It's tight; it tells how the east west beef started, how deathrow got started, it shows Snoop at an award's show faking, and Suge was calling out Bad Boy while he was on stage. It also talks about how all of these people are supposed to be scared of SK. Hip-Hop fans should try to see it. Hey LOX, did you hear that Fiesta remix with R. Kelly and Jada? My man says, I don't pimp, I just keep my hoes in order/and I keep my neck filled with frozen water/ we usaually in jeans, but it's linen tonight/ we spendin' tonight/ and everybody spendin the night. Ha ha. Hillis, you gotta translate that one for us. Don, why didn't I think of that? LOL

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 02, 2001.

FUCK SUGE KNIGHT. Hes the reason why both BIG and PAC are dead. the bastard admited when the drive by was happening pac tryed to jump in the back seat but suge pulled him down. the bitch ass also said that even if he knew who did it he wouldnt tell, punk ass motherfuckin bitch!!! i couldnt believe that shit. Tupac was leaving DR to start his own label called makaveli records or somethin like that and he couldnt stand to see his number one man to leave cause without him DR wouldnt be shit(which its not now) PAC used to be my favorite rapper of all time but i think he ran his mouth a bit too much and i liked how biggie hardly gave in to it and ignored it. BIG could also switch styles from fast to slow like on notorius thugs and i hope you niggaz sleep. but they are the two greatest and will never be topped. its a shame that rap has came down to rappers on everyone talkin about cars, money, and ice, big did that but not on every single song like cashmoney be doin.

-- Big Jon Stud (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 03, 2001.

I have a question: It may seem odd to you, but I don't get it.. Why would anyone brag about sellin' crack? I mean, what's the point? I'm supposed to think you're cool because you sold drugs to your own people? And then, to add insult to injury, I'm supposed to go out and BUY your CD so I could pay to hear you say that garbage? I know rappers nowadays are fond of talking shit, (for lack of a better word), but could one of you Jay-Z/Nas/LOX fans help me understand why these people are going platinum?

-- Enigma (enigmatic@yahoo.com), November 03, 2001.

Yo Enigma. They go platinum because of the music, not necessarily because of the lyrics. Delivery and production go a long way in rap, and quite frankly, if the production or delivery of a song is lacking, no one will buy it. However, lyrics aren't necessary to sell in rap. And that goes for any type of music. For example, @Pac could talk about crack babies mommas, then talk about killin Bad Boy, then move on to his mother, then back to Bad Boy, then tell a story about him and his gun, then lament the state of Black America, and then kill Bad Boy again. All of the time, he would sound tight because his lyrics, flow, production, etc. all SOUNDED GOOD! What makes Creed, Luther Vandross, Marvin Gaye, Jay-Z, Travis Tritt, Faith Hill, Red Hot Chili Peppers, NYSYNC, Matchbox 20, and Chrisina Aguilera sell? For the most part, they sound good. If Luther sang about slangin crack, it would still sound good. You might be like: "Yeah, right, Luther. Stick to romance." But it would still sound good. And Jay- Z/Nas/Jadakiss/MC Get Busy/MC Such n Such, etc. sound good to at least a million people, regardless of what they say.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 03, 2001.

Hey Hillis, you posted something on Nov. 2. You gotta break it down for us. What does it translate to in english? Hollywood, I feel what you say about Jada not switching up his flow, but that's his style. I like him mainly because of his content, but that won't appeal to everyone. He doesn't really need to change up the tempo, but I will admit that when B.I.G. did it with Bone it was one of his best verses. LOX, I haven't debated with too many females about rap, but the ones that I have... YES, they all got me frustrated. Oh yeah, when I mentioned that deathrow movie, I meant to also mention that it tells how Dre and his crew were trying to go somewhere other than Ruthless records, but no one would take them, so every time Dre made a track dissin' Easy-E, Easy was getting paid. I didn't know that, but according to the movie, Easy (before his death) made money off of every Chronic CD sold. Lastly, Enigma, you are supposed to buy the CD because it's entertainment. It's music. It's like when we pay to see a movie where the hero kills like 500 of his own people. It's just to entertain. Nine times outta ten, it's all false anyway. P.S. I just heard soemthing new by Nas. It may be called, "Check Yourself" but I'm not sure. But I am sure it's hot. It's a deep flow and it makes you think, so of course I like it.

-- QS/ Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 04, 2001.

"Yo soy gato loco mio tuo espanol si vosotros ustedes. Me llamo computadora y el sabado es il buena suerte. Yo tambien nosotros hablara con russas y montanas. Mi amigo ser ir al cinema y cosas noches son la playa y par la plage. Hasta la victoria siempre!!!"

I am cat crazy my your Spanish if you (plural) you (formal). I call myself computer and the Saturdays is the good luck. I also we will talk with russians and mountains. My male friend to be to go to the movies and things nights are the beach by the beach(plage is actually French). Until the victory always!!!"

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 04, 2001.

I listen to hip hop because I am intrigued by the lyrics and find the beasts to be pretty cool. But what disappoints me is how poorly our black people misuse their fame and status. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know it's not their job to be role models and all that shit. But, c'mon. All these rappers do is bitch about the system, bitch about their environments and bitch about the lack of opportunities for their race. In the meantime, they flaunt an unrealistic lifestyle and emphasize overindulgence and materialism to a listening audience that, generally speaking, can't attain it. As a result, you have a community of black folks (like the one in which I live)that drive around in Escalades, wearing FUBU and Timbs, but can't support their 6 kids from 6 different women, while living in their Auntie's house. But damn, their freakin' SUV is spotless and hooked up with a dope sound system and twenties. I don't deny the power of the hip hop culture and it's influence on society. As a young black man and high school teacher, I know that the music is entertainment for many of who can separate fact from fiction. Unfortunately, A LOT of black (and white) youth cannot make that distinction and are led to believe that their only means to wealth and material success are to dunk a ball, sell rocks or spit rhymes. Cats like Common, Mos Def and Talib Kweli might not be the most aesthetically pleasing to the ears, but they deserve props for making an attempt to use the hip-hop vehicle in a positive manner. I don't mean to bash our race, but sometimes I feel helpless trying to turn these kids on to education, when all they want to do is shoot hoops, fight or listen to music. Honestly, they have the same opportunity as a white kid from the suburbs to go to college and establish a professional career. They might have to work outside of school and apply for grants and scholarships, but the opportunity is there nonetheless. Although there is some good hip hop music, the majority of it perpetuates a stagnant, lazy, selfish, disillusioned and depressing community of black folks.

-- Brian (briang8@yahoo.com), November 05, 2001.

All these rappers do is bitch about the system, bitch about their environments, and bitch about the lack of opportunities for their race.

Brian, I appreciate your frustration, but I just don't understand what you're talking about. In hip hop there is ten times or twenty times more celebrating than bitching: celebrating skill, motion, deftness of rhythm and rhyme, toughness, flash, a dance back and forth between voices and beats and danger. I don't see where Jay-Z is bitching about anything in "I sell ice in the winter/I sell fire in hell/I am a hustler baby/I sell water to a well." Certainly there's some bitching in hip hop - and there damn well should be - but that's just a small part of the game. Even people like Trick Daddy and Trina are ambivalent, complicated people (the word I'm looking for here is "artists") - they talk in one breath about how they're forced into being thugs and hoes and then in the next about how proud they are to be what they are and how good they are at it, and then make themselves sound amazing in the process. I think you're talking here more from your frustration than your knowledge - in any event, I wish you'd be more specific rather than talk about "all these rappers" across the board. I do admire you for being a teacher and for trying to do what you're doing - it's a difficult job that I would never dare to take. But I hope that as a teacher you're giving respect to the intelligence and style that exist outside the academic track, and sometimes outside the law. Because without that respect, you'll come off as if you're just trying to talk people out of being themselves, rather than helping them find another way to be themselves.

What music by Common do people recommend? I've always avoided the guy, because everyone always makes him sound like spinach. I mean, is he merely good for you, or is their joy and love and fun, as well?

-- Frank Kogan (edcasual@earthlink.net), November 05, 2001.

Common is indie. Therefore his earlier stuff is better, by law.

-- Sterling Clover (sterling_clover@yahoo.com), November 05, 2001.

Frank,

You are absolutely right. I am guilty of generalizing and stereotyping, for which I apologize. I am frustrated. Non-hip hop music has bad influences too. Dudes like Marilyn Manson and Ozzy Osbourne aren't exactly positive musical forces. Columbine wasn't in the inner city. My concern is with my people and the effect of the music on their expectations and perceptions of life. I think a lot of the folks on this thread like Frank, Hillis, Qoolout, Second Sage and Maz are intelligent, articulate people who obviously have a passion for the music. I enjoy reading all of your comments and, in hindsight, apologize for disrupting what was a positive and engaging dialogue.

-- Brian (brian8@yahoo.com), November 05, 2001.

Bryant G. (Hillis), I have been away for a liitle bit, but I was reading your messages and I applaude you for your effort at kicking some spanish, although what you said did not really make sense, you did try. Again, I applaude you..."A Life without a Cause is A Life without an Effect"......HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE....MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 05, 2001.

Frank: Have you heard "I Used To Love H.E.R."? A good classic single that encapsulates all of Common's strengths and weaknesses in four minutes.

-- Ian (ilx@brown.edu), November 05, 2001.

yo! I give it to nas dat lil flow was tight but he still aint came back. He just another hata hatin on Jay-Z he aint came back form dat time when Jay-Z shut him down on the blueprint. I can break nas in freestylin'think about it Jay-Z have had what 6 to 7 cd's out and nas only had 3 to 4 and nas been in tha game longer

-- Devin Izzard a.k.a in`famas (lil_bone20012002@yahoo.com), November 06, 2001.

Hey Brain, no need to apologize. If some facts were laid down and now you have a different point of view, then that’s one thing, but you didn’t disrupt anything. If you disagree with a point, let it be known. I am also upset about the state of rap and I hope that I am wrong, but I predict it getting worse before it gets better. But as long as we keep this thing constructive, we all learn from each other. And as far as Jay having more CDs….LL’s got more than both of them, but that doesn’t make him better, and Master P has a lot too, and we all know he’s not the best rapper. Lastly, never been a fan of Common, so I don't really know his work; I just know I don't like it.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.

yo Qoolout ive heard most of the jadakiss disses there hot did you here the styles diss to (oh my bad i forgot to put everything in caps lock)GAY-Z.HE SAYS THE ONLY THING YALL POP IS THE CORKS FROM THE WINE BOTTLE .AND THEN HE SAYS THERES ABOUT TO BE THREE DEAD DOGS IN A RESIVOIR REFERRING TO THE SONG ON THE HARD KNOCK LIFE ALBUM HE RAPS ON THE WAIT A MINUTE BEAT.YO HAVE YALL HEARD OF SHAHEED THE POSTER BOY THIS NIGGA IS NICE. I HEARD HIM ON A SONG WITH THE JURRASIC PARK BEAT THAT SHIT IS ILL.YALL CHECK THAT OUT.YO AM GOING TO GIVE YALL THE ADDRESS FOR THIS HOT ASS MIXTAPE SITE TAPEMAFIA.COM. ONE.

-- LOX (hot97kid@hotmail.com), November 06, 2001.

Gracias, Manny. Yo quiero saber que si te gustan las hamburguesas! Me gustan las hamburguesas mucho! Mi restaurante favorito es il "McDonald's." Ques es tu restaurante favorito? "Taco Bell?" La cena mexicana es muy bonita, no? Yo espere que tu puedo comer muchos tacos a la Nueva York. Buena suerte in la escuela. Hasta la victoria siempre. Y eso es verdadero. Bryant Gumbel 3000 salgo...

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 06, 2001.

If you haven't heard Jada claims never to have a problem with Jay and he got in touch with Beans to squash it. DMX claims Jay is a friend of his. Jayo felony hattin. If we (the fans) stop boosting this shit it won't end up like that 2pac and biggie shit. There both great rappers and for those who don't know Nas did start it. But hopefully they'll be big enough to end and let hip-hop progress. If they both decided to go out now they'll go out legends. Stop comparing there first albums. Compare both there 2nd and both they're 3rd and so one. Then you'll have your answer. Hip-Hop 4-ever unless we kill it.

-- Gina (Caramel_53@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

YO IT WASNT NAS THAT STARTED THE BEEF . THATS WHAT JAY-Z TRYING TO SAY THAT NAS AND PRODIGY STRATED THAT SHIT. I HEARD HIS BITCH ASS SAYING THAT ON B.E.T. THE OTHER DAY.IF YALL WOULDVE KNOWN IT WAS MEMPHIS BLEEKS CLOWN ASS THAT STARTED SHIT.HE TRIED TO GO ON HOT 97 AND TALK WITH A BARITONE AND TALK SHIT WITH HIS LITTLE ROCAFELLA CREW.SO MY MAN NAS HAD TO GO AFTER HIS DUMB ASS.AM OUT.ONE!

-- LOX (hot9kid@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

All of you that are talking about who started the beef between Nas and Jay-z think about this. If you guys remember a little rap group that went platnum in 1996 by the name of "THE FIRM." Y'all remember Nas the bonified leader AZ, Foxy Brown, and on occasion Nature. Think about this you have an up and comming rapper at the time (Jay-z)and he does numerous collabos w/ Foxy, and has AZ in one of his videos, plus one of his first hit singles has a sample of Nas's voice on "The world is yours" one of Nas's first hit singles. Jay-z was like the invisable 5th member of the group. Nas from what I herd turned down Jay to join the group. Rejection is a bitch! A need for retaliation aginst Nas. It makes sence because Foxy, and AZ are mad cool with Jay, except for Nas.I think by using Nas's voice, getting his Firm associate Foxy to be on THREE ALBUMS consecutively and also putting Beans and Amil on AZ most reasent album I think it is Jay tring to get in the head of Nas.Hopefuly neither of the two does anything rash to end thier carrers perminetly.

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 07, 2001.

Jay-z is da number one rapper in the game for a few reasons: One, he's been the most consistant (From 96 till now he came out with a better than average album 96, reasonable doubt, 97 Vol 1, 98 Vol 2, 99,volume 3, 2000 Dynasty, and now 2G1 Blueprint, the best album right now. Whew!!.None of these albums went lower than platinium except Reasonable doubt, which went gold.Two, he can talk about anything, from blings to kings, streets to beefs, nuns to guns. Three, he proved that he can out battle alot of cats (even though he took the beef with prodigy a little too personal), his diss on Nas should really wake Nas up, so that he can make an album reminescent of illmatic, which was way better than reasonable doubt (sorry Jay gotta go with nas on that one.Four, he can back up his claim that he's the greatest better than anyone. Whatever the beef is, please keep it strictly on wax. one

-- Joseph Pittman (J_dolo@nvctc.com), November 07, 2001.

This thing did start a few album back. They've been on bad terms for a while. Memphis did put it out in the open. But Nas decided to take shots at Jay and the whole crew b/c of something bleek said. Nas should have left that between him and bleek b/c that shit with him and Jay was deaded a while back.

-- (Caramel_53@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

Like Jay-z said B-4, the greatest ever in the rap game are Biggie, Nas, and Jay-Z. They are the Holy Trinity of Rhyme. If Jay-Z's the Father (J-Hova), Nas is the son (prophet sent to earth to kick knowledge),then Biggie is the Holy Spirit.One by themself can take over the whole game; together (if Biggie was alive), they could have took over the industry. 2-Pac was ill, LL was smooth, but as far as lyrics, punchlines, and distinctive flows and indifferent word plays, no one was better than the Holy Trinity of Rhyme. Now imagine if Jay- z and Nas squashed the beef and came together to do a one time only album, it would be the beginning of Armageddon even as we speak. Peace, and I give a shout out to the firefighters, the police and medical personal at GROUND zero and bigger shouts to the troops overseas, now this is the beef we all should care about! Peace, and God Bless America. One.

-- Joe "J-Dolo" Pittman (j_dolo@nvctc.com), November 07, 2001.

J-Dolo, how can you say Jay-Z Nas and BIG make up the Holy Trinity of rap? Nas has one good album. BIg has one good album. Jay-Z's success lies in production. You can't really believe them cats is better than Pac. Pac has a bigger fan base, more hits, and he's just better in general. You must be from New York with that Holy Trinity. Free your mind. Longevity in the game means a lot. Jay is the only one with any resemblance of that. And he's only been in it 5. Rethink your shit dog.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 07, 2001.

J-Dolo fella, I Have to argree with Bryant G. (Hillis) on this one, you can't be calling JayZ,Nas and BIG the Holy 3 or whatever you called them. what about MC NEW YORK (aka Tupac), L.L., Ice-Cube, KRS- ONE. maybe even Snoop Dogg.....and Dont give me that God Bless America crap. God Bless everybody, cause there are innocent human lives in Afghanistan that are being lost everyday due to these strikes or do you believe CNN and the DOD only.....HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE.. MANNY GUEVARA....

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 07, 2001.

Yea, that whole trinity stuff I don't agree with either. I respect the fact you got love for all 3 MC's but, Holy trinity! If you were going to put any rappers in a Holy Trinity form of some sort you have to start at the begining of the game with the originators the cold crush brothers and so forth from there. The true patriarchs of the rap game.

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 07, 2001.

Not to get off of the trinity subject or anything, but everyone go to this site thaformula.com/interviews and read how my nigga P rips Jay Z saying that he only showed that picture at Summer Jam because Mobb Deep were banned from performing there. He also says that if he was a real nigga that he would have shown up and the Source Awards, but he was no where to be found. Another thing for all you cats that feel Jay Z is lyrically better than Nas...... GET REAL!! Look for yourself at some of Nas's in-depth lyricals at Ohhla.com..................IT'S GETTING CLOSER TO STILLMATIC!! My fault duns the formula site also talks about how Jay Z had a private phone conversation with Cormega asking him about the status of Nas and P. This so called King of HipPop is a fake yall better realize that!!

-- The Best (Nchekwube@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

I didnt mean that they were the holy trinity of "rap";i just said that they were the holy trinity of "rhyme". Rap itself is the overall music ability (beats, rhymes, patterns,etc) i'm talking straight out lyrics, and how they're put together, how they are said, and the ability to flow from the top of the head. Jay-z and Biggie, from what i heard from reliable sources that worked with them, never, and I MEAN NEVER, had anything down on paper! And Nas,even though he probably have written, listen to illmatic, and youll see that he paints vivid pictures of his life and the street life;basically, nas is a natural poet, and Biggie has the charisma, and Jay-Z has the flow. I'm not talking about the best ever, I mean the best recently. LL may had sold more records than all three of them, but lets be honest,right now would he be able to mess with jay-z, nas, or biggie, he barely got by canibus (no respect to canibus).

-- Joe P (j_dolo@nvctc.com), November 08, 2001.

I gotta agree wit Best. No way is Jay better than Nas if you listen to the content; it’s not even open for discussion. And no way is Nas, Jay or B.I.G. better than Pac. I mentioned LL to prove that a lota CDs does not mean you are tight i.e. Hov. He can flow, I’ll admit that, but if I had a percentage of ROC, I’d put out a lotta CDs too. But that’s neither here nor there. About this so-called rap beef…that’s all it is. Rap. And we as the fans can hype it, all day long, but if it turns to gunplay, that’s not something, I feel, you can blame on the fans. People hype stuff in high school, you gotta be man enough to not feed into the hype. Also, we really don’t know who started it. The person who rapped the first diss didn’t necessarily start it. We may never know what caused this, but I agree Jay got childish by showing them pics. One last thing about B.I.G, I like him as a rapper and he was better than Jay in my book, but he gets no props for not responding to Pac. He said it himself that he wanted to respond, but Puff advised him against it. But then he makes a video dissin’ Faith? An R&B singer and the mother of your child? But you say nothing to Pac? Come on, that’s a punk move if I’ve ever saw one. Oh yeah, we never know if they are freestylin’ or not, so they get no points for that. Just because they don’t write their rhymes, that doesn’t mean they are spitting from the top of the head, they just have it memorized, and that’s not freestylin’.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

As classic as Illmatic was, as of now Nas cannot fuck wit Jay. Everybody who argues for Nas always goes, "Illmatic! Illmatic!" Or even worse, "Wait and see how tight STILLmatic is!" First of all, Nas has one classic and that one makes him better than Jay? Please, Reasonable Doubt and Hard Knock Life (in my opinion) are both better than Illmatic. But even if you disagree, you cannot say any of Nas' other shits (literally, shits) can touch Jay's. Jay's worst album (to me, Vol 1.) is 20 times better than weak ass Nastradamus. And it was written had some great cuts, but overall it barely touches any of Jay's album. I Am was good for a month, then I never listened to that bitch again.

Second of all, the "Stillmatic" is supposed to be tight. Well, "Born Again" was SUPPOSED to be tight, but it was disappointing. "Tha Doggfather" was supposed to be tight, but it was disappointing. Hell, Jay-Z's "Volume 3" was supposed to be the "Thriller" of rap albums. But that shit definitely didn't live up to it's hype. The point is, just like the majority of BIG's fans, you guys jump on the potential bandwagon. BIG had the POTENTIAL to be the best MC ever, but was cut short, but some people give him the crown anyway with only one classic under his belt. And y'all doin it for Nas. Everybody screamin "Stillmatic! Stillmatic!" Well, I'm gonna scream "Nastradamus! Nastradamus!" The album and the gay ass song...

Think about this. I'm a TN Titans fan. They suck right now. Sure they was the AFC champs two years ago, and the NFL's best team at the end of the regular season. But they are still 3-4 now. Until they turn it around, it would be naiive of me to say they're better than the Rams, Raiders, Pack, etc... Remember that Nas fans.

Holla.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 08, 2001.

not to get too far off of hip-hop, but i had to respond to manny's comments. i'm still a little ill about the monkey statement which was way out of line, but i agree that many innocent lives are being taken and many of us need to open are eyes to that fact. america was pissed after the sept 11 tragedy and our leaders knew that to satisfy our anger they needed to bomb something. and they've been doing that without direction and we've been silent to the fact that we are taking innocent lives. i do apologize for getting off of the subject, but God bless america? i don't think so. God bless us all!

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

what went on with d12 throwing rocks at esham? anyone know?? the tupac thing is like the princess diana thing. sucky.

-- bob snoom (bobwest@talk21.com), November 08, 2001.

Some peeps listen to rap or music in general just so they can nod their head or pump their fist. There’s nothing wrong with that. All it takes to satisfy these kinds of fans (I’m not one) is a good beat or a nice hook. Jigga’s CDs have both. As far as content goes, like I said before, Jigga can not touch Nas. I listen to the words and I like songs that have some type of point. I’m not saying that the song has got to be deep; I’m only saying tell me something and show me you put some effort into your rhyme. Girls, girls, girls is a perfect example of a meaningless song, so is Nastradaums. Izzo has an okay beat, catchy hook, but that’s not what makes me like a song. It does sell. So if the question is “does Jay out sell Nas?” Of course he does, but as far as who puts out better content, I say Nas. If you disagree…well, to each his own.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

i can't help think of "'nads" everytime i read "nas" anyone else have that problem? howbout Mr C? "fure feelin mind in motion flowing like a river into the ocean"...

-- bob snoom (bobwest@talk21.com), November 08, 2001.

"FUTURE feeling mind in motion" god i just cannot control my fingers

-- bob snoom (bobwest@talk21.com), November 08, 2001.

My question is, why does either rapper give a damn about the other. Are they fighting over who's better or who is the most real, or what? Like Jay said, "What you eat don't make me shit". So who cares make your own damn music cash your check and be EASY. I also believe that though their hatin each other theres still a mutual respect b/c nobody waste their time on bull shit. I mean ain't nobody messing with Nelly and he's walking around saying he's #1. That's b/c nobody cares. I also believe that's why Jay didn't trash Jayo Felony and the others they just weren't worth it. "I like them both"

-- (danny017@blackplanet.com), November 08, 2001.

god i just cannot control my fingers

that usually results in pleasure though, no ?

-- Vic (iodine999@aol.com), November 08, 2001.

Bob and Vic, take it easy with that all that pleasure crap, you clowns wanna hook up email eachother..Im trying to have a dialogue with my young brothers and sisters here...everybodys talking about illmatic, illmatic, holy shit it ain't the bible fellas. name three songs besides "lifes a bitch" and "NY S.o.M." on that album, without looking it up...Don Was did I hurt your feelings?? You have not said anything constructive till your last message so I will upgrade to a Chimp, ok?? .....Bryant G, que fue mi pana?? ...HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE.. MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@homail.com), November 08, 2001.

As for you Qooluot, yoou claim to look for content and but you have not once mentioned RAKIM..your a young buck who only knows NAs and Jay-Z, so it would be a waste of everybodys time to listen to your content nonsense, when all you listen to are the mainstream songs like evrybody else. you wanna be thug punk kid. RAKIM pick it up, he has plenty out there....HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE..MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 08, 2001.

Nelly was #1 though, on the charts. And he probably will be again. But he's so laid back and unpretentious, even on that track, that nobody seems to care except for the underground pop-haters, who he reserves special bile for.

-- Sterling Clover (sterling_clover@yahoo.com), November 09, 2001.

biggie only had 1 good record? haha ok whatever you say and born again was tight, listen to song number 17 and 4. Tupac ran his mouth too much and maybe some people are into bullshit like hit em up. Hills, first i think you said that selling records doesnt make you a good rapper but then you go and say that tupac had a better fanbase (white people generaly) whatever

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

Speaking of "beefs" and "dis" records, I'm curious to see which "dis" tracks y'all think are best of all time. Off the top of my head, "Hit 'Em Up" by Pac, Cube's "No Vaseline" and Eminem's recent slam on Limp Bizkit/Everlast "Girls" come to mind. Of course most old school rap was based on lyrical battling, but what do y'all think are the most scathing verbal assaults of all time?

-- maz (moto99@excite.com), November 09, 2001.

See Manny, I figured you had left it alone; I thought you had learned your lesson, but I guess I was wrong. I guess you enjoy me pointing out your ignorance. First of all, you have yet to correctly spell Qoolout. Take your time, I think you can accomplish this small task. Second, why do you keep hatin’ on me? Why do you have such an infatuation with Qool? Why do you like peeps pointing out your juvenile writing skills? Don said he had no time for you and still you try to pull him into it. Learn to spell “you,” and "everybody's" before you address me again. You've never been to Africa, and who cares if you have? And what does that have to do with anything. And I never said I was a thug, so what are you talking about? Why are you such a fool? If you disagree, then disagree and leave it at that, simpleton. For some reason you want me to keep showing just how ignorant you are. So I'll do it again. For starters, I did mention Rakim before, so you were wrong. Second, Rakim is gone. I give him props for paving the way, but that's over now. I don't usually mention record sells, but they meant more back then. Remember his last CD? Did it even go wood? If it did or it didn't, what is your point? I know you aren't saying his flow is better than the people that I've mentioned. He paved the way, but today he is in retirement and I suggest you let him stay there. Just like the old heads in B- ball. They were great back then, but that was then. Ra doesn't wanna see Jay, Nas, Em...none of them. Pac is dead and his stuff is better. And stop lying about being in school. Your foolishness, shows me that you NEED to be in school. Otherwise, why would you criticize me for only speaking about Jay and Nas. 1 that's false and 2 they are the topic. Get some sense. Oh yeah, if it's a waste of time to read my words, WHY do you respond? Are you trying to be comical or are you that much of a fool? Lastly, since you have accepted my other dares, here's a new one: Say something about rap. Make sure it contains NO nonsense. Okay? And see if you can say it intelligently. Yeah, I know I'm asking for too much, but just go try it. Maz, I think I like Cube's diss the best, but Jada's was hard too.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

justin timberlake has good flow. (every month?)

-- bob snoom (bobwest@talk21.com), November 09, 2001.

Big J, you can't be serious! Considering that "Born Again" was made with up to date beats, had mad collabos, and took 3 years to come out, that shit was a MAJOR disappointment. You said it's tight and told me to listen to 2 songs. Yeah, right! C'mon, dawg, the only good songs on that album were #4 (wit Cash Money) and "Dead Wrong." "Rap Phenomenon," "NOTORIOUS," the song wit Snoop and Busta Rhymes, and the song wit Beanie were stomachable. The rest of that album was a disgrace to BIG's legacy. How Puff gon let that weak excuse for a follow-up come after Life After Death? And I can say with a straight face that Ready to Die wasn't all that good, either. The production was suspect. "The What" and "Big Poppa" were the only classic tracks. "Warning" was good, too. So yeah, BIG had one good album, but that album happened to be the best album to come out of New York.

Big J, don't get it twisted. Any SUCCESSFUL rapper has a fan base that is predominantly white. How does any rapper sell? Of course rich young white kids put em over the million mark. Be realistic. BIG's fan base was white kids, too. And Nas, Jay, whoever. You can't fault Pac for having more white boys than BIG. And how racist was that statement?! White folks can't like/know hip-hop? You're a waste of time Big J.

The best rap diss ever was definitely Hit Em Up, and anybody who thinks it's "bullshit" (i.e. Big J) really shouldn't have a discussion about rap, because your thinking is obviously flawed.

Justin Timberlake can flow? Really? On what?

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 09, 2001.

i appreciate your response to manny's ignorance. unfortunately i don't get on this thread daily, so by the time i read his nonsense you had already responded. i was so close to stooping to his level as i scrolled down the thread and you saved me the grief. i try not to involve myself in pure ignorance because it gets personal and we really don't know eachother. manny, did you hurt my feelings? well, yeah. though you are no brother of mine, it does hurt me to know that people of color are continually holding eachother down with hateful words, let alone racist words. if you need to direct anything in towards me, do it as a man. i promise to show that same respect. otherwise there are many sights that would welcome your views on black people. by the way, are you an auburn student?

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

Qoollloouut, Tu eres un nino, que no sabe nada de nada, entiende? Why don't you look those words up just like the new words you learned when you wrote your last message. Guy, I have been all over the world, why don't you try getting out of your suburban hood. You fool!...Don Was, your still a chimp, but I dont want you to take that word as as racist remark. Lesson one, never ASSUME anything. I might have said some things about Hip-hop but I never said that I dislike or hate anybody because of their Ethnicity or Color. O.k. sweetheart?...HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE..MANNY GUEVARA..

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

Ok fellas these are my top 5 Rappers of all time (Living, Dead and Retired, is that ok with you Ms. Qoolout)..Now every rapper had a mainstream song outthere and if you cant admit that, then your as much of a clown as Ms. Qoolout...this is NOT in order..1) Rakim, 2) Tupac, 3) KRS-ONE (he can rip anybody in a free-battle), 4) LL 5)Jay-Z. My Sixth man goes to B.I.G.,died before his time and not much to go on after that. Unlike 2Pac who still drops albums just when you thought he was done...Many of you will disagree and if so tell me yours...HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE...MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

(Let me make this clear This message is for those who have been doing this battling BULLSHIT over this board past and present!)

look all of you have strong opinions on who's the best who's not and who can take who on the battle field. Thats all fine speak your peace and respect each others opinion. Look I didn't complain before about this because I thought it was funny just like everybody else. But this is a discussion about rap, and yeah it will get emotional when you talk about something you feel strongly about but the constant insults and duragatory comments is kiddy, for goodness sake! All I hear is I'm a grown man, I'm a grown man! Well age does not play a factor in what you guys(some of you not all)consider a grown man! The character, and willingness to conduct a conversation as MEN! Not the number givin by government to consider indivisuals as leagal adults. I'm 16 and I'm not a rightious person trying to kick positive knowlege to you guys, thats not what I'm here for. Nor am I the posterboy for a positive outlook on rap. I get emotional too with my friends when we talk about it but I don't go as far as insulting his or her race or intelegents. A while back when this guy who posted a message on this board I forgot his name, I think it was "rap sucks" but anyways, he dislike rap and insulted the culture of whole genre. You guys really showed him didn't you when you continued to embarrased our allready ridiculed audience. Let that battling shit stay with in the rappers they will get the idea adventually being dead or alive, you know what I mean! As a diverse world we are not going to agree you know that, but why is the WTC, race, and intellegents have any thing to do with what is you opinion about rap and who you think is the best. Keep expresing your opinion if you disagree with someone or you just want to be herd. But the BULLSHIT is not needed!

HOLLYWOOD Holla Back!

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 09, 2001.

wow hills you obviously must still be stuck on the dirty south beats to even realize the greatness of newyork. i was going to make my post longer explaining my so called "racist" comment but i was at school and there was a white boy staring at my computer. plus i dont think that could even be counted as racist comment unless your some kind of arian brotherhood maniac or some shit like that. your not much of a big fan so i dont think you would get much out of it as i would since hes my favorite of all time and listen to the shit almost everyday so i would be saying gayz's shitprint was good because im not a jayz fan.right im a waste of time, i cant debate forever(thinkin about becomeing a laywer) oh and some more tracks that are good. 4 (cashmoney) 11(meth and redman) 17(nas) 15 i think(the one with ice cube, black rob and shitie sigel) the one with mobb deep in it is tight but like i said im mostly newyork and non-pop when it comes to rap music. and you know Suge knight forced tupac to do alot of those dis songs btw. and LOX your the man keep representin man.

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 10, 2001.

Hollywood, shut the fuck up! I been battlin in here cuz I'm a grown ass man, and if me and somebody in here wanna battle. we'll battle. And I said it before: If I say somethin about the WTC and you don't like it, you can kiss my ass, cuz I say what I want. Nobody battlin has said anything to yo ass, but you wanna come at us with what you think about us? Fuck you! I don't give a damn what you or anybody else in this thread thinks about my confrontations.

Big J, that shit about Pac's fan base being white was racist! Why did you say that? What the fuck does that mean? No matter what genre of music, Black musicians usually have a predominantly white fan base, cuz there are more of them than anyone else! But you seem to think that fault's 2Pac's success. Fuck that! 2pac is more beloved than any rapper, he sells better than any rapper, and everyone acknowledges his musical skills. He's the best ever! Plain and simple. Ask niggas, white boys, sand niggas, eses, squaws, whoever. They will tell you that Pac was the man.

Record sells don't mean you're the best artist. But, c'mon. They do mean something. I mean, to sell over a million records, they have to do SOMETHING right. Plus, how else can you distinguish the great rappers? I mean we can argue who's deeper, lyrically wittier, whatever we want all day, but that's all opinion. But sales are based on cold hard facts. Record sales for Nelly, Ludacris, etc. are different from record sales for Pac, Mobb Deep, Jay, Nas, BIG, and other longtime players. Nelly selling 7 million on one album, or Juvi sellin 5 million on one album is different from Jay taking 4 albums platinum over 4 years. That's why I bring up record sales. To distinguish the kings.

Manny, your list needs to take Rakim off of #1.

My PERSONAL list (not my considering all the issues list)

2Pac (for obvious reasons), BIG (2 words - lyrical genius), UGK (Pimp C has delivery that rivals 2Pac/Bun B's wordplay is excellent), Outkast (at LEAST 3 classics - SouthernPlayaListic is the best album out the South), Three 6 Mafia (remember, this is MY personal list - long live the Dirty, Dirty!).

Holla.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 10, 2001.

Hills 3000 why are you so hostile when people show constructive criticism towards your actions on the board. You did not even get the idea of my message and you to come out and bash someone who actually repected you by not telling you to shut the fuck up.Yeah I used profanity but not towards indivisuals like you have with me. You can argue your point all you want to about who is the best rapper and so forth. I got no beef with that what so ever. My message was to stick to the subject and not insult each other on views,race,and intellegents. You have your opinion about the WTC if you want to express you opinion do so but don't include them in your battles with whoever. That to me is foolish, and you to take offence like I cussed you out, like some other people have. It is wrong I did not even come to you like that I just spoke my mind and you disagreed okay. But you bashed on me. Whatever motive you have to get under peoples skin is wrong and if you were so grown you would have had the mutual respect for me as I did to you. I did not even mention your name as one of the people who I was talking about. I did not want to put names out like that, but that's okay you wanted that way so you got it.I sill got love for you even though I diagree with your actions towards me. I'll take the high road on this one and tell you to have a nice day Hills.

Holla

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 10, 2001.

My bad y'all, but this here post has very little to do with rap, instead it's dedicated to someone. That's right Manny, it's just for you. First of all, since you have such a love for Qool, let's make this official. You wanna question me so much, and you are so worried about what I type...okay, you broke me down. The answer is, yes. Yes, you can be my hoe. All right, as my hoe, let's get some things clear. We are gonna drop that M from Manny and just call you Anny. Okay? And whoever is reading this, you know that that's how we will address this simpleton, as Anny. Next Anny, you've got to get some intelligence. I can't stand a stupid hoe, and no hoe of mine will be stupid. Thus, you will no longer say foolishness like "I've been all over the world." WHO CARES!?!?!? What does that have to do with rap? Oh yeah, if you gonna be saying my name so much, you gotta learn to say it right. I can't have my hoe disrespecting me. So learn the name, so you can "Say my name, say my name." Also, before you try speaking two languages, learn how to speak one correctly. That "Hasta La Victoria" bull is weak cuz, and makes no sense. Okay, we are gonna keep one thing as it is. You know how everyone on the thread has raped you? We gonna let that continue. I know I can't turn you into a house wife so why should I say "you can only be my hoe"? No, no, everyone can still hit Manny...my bad, I mean Anny. It ain't no fun if the homies can't have none. Holla...hoe.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 10, 2001.

Hollywood, I've said that too many times to count. Scroll up. I've been asking to get back on the topic of rap and we took it back for a second. But Anny had something negative to say and he forced my hand. 80% of what you said, was already said by me. I said that if you wanna disagree, do that and leave it there. But, if someone disrespects me, what should I do? I'll do the same you did. I don't know if you will admit it of not, but you said something negative things towards Hillis; you felt he attacked you and you responded. That's all many of us were doing against Anny. I know I probably should have taken the high road, but what's done is done. Don ask Anny to show some respect. We tried all of that stuff that you are suggesting and I even suggested some of that, but fools (Anny) only understand foolishness. Once again, I'll try to stick to rap, but it's Anny you need to address.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 10, 2001.

Damn, Anny! You gon go out like that?! Ha!

First of all Hollywood, it's Hillis 3000! Hillis! Not Hills - Hillis! Second, you can't take the high road cuz you obviously came after me. You "tried" to be subtle, and you supposedly tried to keep my name out ya mouth. But I'm the only one who said anything about the WTC, so if you mention that I know who you're talking to. And fuck that, I say names. I don't appreciate you tellin me what I should or shouldn't say or how I should or shouldn't battle. If you don't wanna battle, pay us no mind. Write what you write, and be out. Don't try to slide lil shit in on people and assume since you don't say names, we'll just take that shit in stride. I haven't let anything in here slide by me since the first time I posted. Ask Anny, lox, JS, Big J, and anybody else that got shit to say to me or about my region. So, I'm not gonna start lettin shit slide with you, Hollywood. Next time you got somethin on ya chest, be more general, and don't be so specific, you cockroach.

Anny! lol! I know you ain't gon go out like that man's hoe! Ha!

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 10, 2001.

My bad on saying your name wrong hillis 3000.I'm not trying to tell you what to do, or try to battle you.And when I did not say your name, that is because you were not the only one I was talking about.It was for those people who were doing the battlin on the board,yes you were one of them but the whole messege was not devoted towards you.If you think I'm just putting on a front by being subtle,you were right.Because I thought If I would come to you with out cussing you out and telling you who you are and this and that you would reply with the same respect.You have opinions,and if you feel I attacked you I'm sorry and not to seem soft.I appologize,but it is hard to see this subject get out of hand.This message is not about trying to get back at you but come to an understanding with the situation at hand.Qoolout you are right you said the same things.And manny has been one of guys battling on this board.But just like Hillis 3000 I did not want to point fingers and name, names because I felt it was not my place to put a face on the problem but speak my peace on the issues that I felt needed to be left alone.This my only message

"It's okay to have cival disagreements on sertain issues.But moraly it is wrong for us to attack one another by attacking each others self being.Ignorance excist but using that same ignorance to fight back is not getting anyone anywere.To move above we all must respect each other and use words not as weapons."

Sounds lame I know but it is how I feel

Holla back Hollywood

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 11, 2001.

Now, Hollywood. I can dig that. Holla.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 11, 2001.

Hollywood, Your last message had me crying. Take of your skirt and grab your fucking balls. "im sorry hillis,im sorry hillis, why dont you send him a christmas present while your at it boy!!. There are people in this world who either Know or Don't Know. Qoolout just Doesn't Know. He mocks my phrase, but yet he doesn't know what it means or what it stands for, but yet he is probably using it. You are a puppet Qoolout, I have been pulling your strings at will. Bryant G is learning, but dont get out of line either boy!!..Oh yeah Qoolout, that "Anny" bit was funny, I enjoyed that one...HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE..MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 11, 2001.

Hey Anny, Hillis already told us what your weak phrase means. Best believe, I'm not using it. But look, I don't even wanna beef anymore. You got your opinions and I've got mine. So we can squash it. People can read our posts and they can debate about who won, me or you. I'll even go ahead and call you Manny. For real. I mean, it was fun while it lasted, but let's move on. No hard feelings from this side. Holla. P.S. I'm glad you liked the Anny bit. It had me laughing, too.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 11, 2001.

Qoolout, This was not a competition for me. I can tell that you have a lot to learn because you were out to win somehting that could not be won. I came on here to listen to what people had to say and how they felt about certain subjects and I threw out some of my own ideas in the mean time. Respect. A Life without a Cause, is a Life without Effect.....HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE...MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 11, 2001.

I definitly made this board more interesting, didn't I fellas??..But I still heard nobody answer me on the top 5?? NOT in order I got Rakim,KRS-ONE,Tupac,L.L.,JAY-Z...6th man goes to BIG...what you monkeys think??

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@homail.com), November 11, 2001.

HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE....MANNY GUEVARA...L.T.R.B.

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 11, 2001.

FUCK JIGGA AND HIS 5 MICS (I GUESS 6TH TIMES A CHARM FOR JIGGA, UNLIKE NAS WHO GOT 5 MICS THE 1ST TIME)AND WHO WAS ON THE COVER OF THE SOURCE-----OF COARSE THE REALEST, ILLEST, MC THAT EVER LIVED... SO FUCK GAY-Z AND HIS "TAKEOVER", WE KNOW HES JUST A H.O.M.O. YALL MU'FUCKERS GET READY CUZ DEC.11TH A LOT OF HEATS GOIN' DOWN

"TO BE THE BEST U GOTTA GET AT THE BEST" -NAS

IS THIS WHY JIGGA SAID SOME BULLSHIT AT THE SUMMERJAM? HMMMMMMM

WHO REALLY STARTED THE BEEF ???

FUCK THAT COMMERCIAL ASS BULL SHIT FOR THE REALNESS LOG ON TO www.stillmatic.com ~1~ BIIAAAAAATCH

-- NastYNaSQB (nas_stillmatic@hotmail.com), November 11, 2001.

FUCK JIGGA AND HIS 5 MICS (I GUESS 6TH TIMES A CHARM FOR JIGGA, UNLIKE NAS WHO GOT 5 MICS THE 1ST TIME)AND WHO WAS ON THE COVER OF THE SOURCE-----OF COARSE THE REALEST, ILLEST, MC THAT EVER LIVED... SO FUCK GAY-Z AND HIS "TAKEOVER", WE KNOW HES JUST A H.O.M.O. YALL MU'FUCKERS GET READY CUZ DEC.11TH A LOT OF HEATS GOIN' DOWN

"TO BE THE BEST U GOTTA GET AT THE BEST" -NAS

IS THIS WHY JIGGA SAID SOME BULLSHIT AT THE SUMMERJAM? HMMMMMMM

WHO REALLY STARTED THE BEEF ???

FUCK THAT COMMERCIAL ASS BULL SHIT FOR THE REALNESS LOG ON TO www.stillmatic.com ~1~ BIIAAAAAATCH

FUCK JIGGA

-- NastYNaSQB (nas_stillmatic@hotmail.com), November 11, 2001.

I cried too Manny!But anyways a day ago my girl told me to check out this guy name 50 cent. She thought I never herd of him but all I know is that he hate Jay-z. So I listened to it over the phone and he kinda fuck Jay up on it.I don't know who he really is so my question is why the hell is 50 cent dissin Jay-z and who started the beef.

I am a liitle slow on things but I figured out that on "some like it hot" song on Jay's album vol.3 he kinda made a comeback somewhat by saying "What the fuck is 50 cent" on verse one.It didn't do anything for me.But my girl the biggest Jay fan said he ate him up??????????? Tell me what you think

Holla back ya, Hollywood

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 11, 2001.

hey hillis, what albums by ugk and three six do you recommend? i'd like to check 'em out? by the way qoolout, "we are the streets" is hot. like you said kiss is tight as hell on that. i haven't heard his solo joint yet, but it's on my list too.

-- maz (moto99@excite.com), November 12, 2001.

Whatever Manny. You are actually kinda correct. Yeah, I was trying to win and you take that how you wanna. And yeah, I have a lot to learn, but people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Moving on... until I hear Nas' new thing, I won't speak on it. What's the best track in you all's opinion on Blueprint? I can really relate to "Song Cry." Let me know what y'all feelin.' Maz, I told you, go head and get the solo too. And Manny, my fave five, not the best, but my best are : Pac, Nas, Jigga, Jada, and Scarface back in the day. Oh yeah, I heard that Rakim is about to sign with Dre. No bull, I heard it on the radio this moring. LOX, what's the name of the Styles-Jigga diss? Holla.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 12, 2001.

YO WHAT UP YALL!YO HILLIS WHYD THE HELL YOU HAD TO CALL ME OUT LIKE THAT I THOUGHT WE SQUASHED THE SHIT.AM GONNA STAY WITH MY OPINION ALLRIGHT!I DIDNT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR BEST RAPPERS LIST BUT 36 MAFIA IS SUSPECT! CHECK THERE SONGS TWO WAY FREAK,CHICKENHEAD,TONGUE RING ETC.CMON THESE ARE NOT VERY GOOD SONGS.I COULD MAKE THESE SONGS RIGHT NOW. AND WHATS THE DEAL WITH ICING OUT THERE TWO WAYS THATS SO FUNNY.ANYWAY I DONT HAVE BEEF WITH MANNY SO I AINT EVEN GONNA ADDRESS HIM.YO QOOLOUT I DONT KNOW BUT IT WAS ON THE FUNK FLEX SPECIAL DELIVERY PART THREE.YO LET ME BRING SOMETHING OUT DO YALL KNOW BOUT BIG L I THINK THIS CAT IS BLAZING HOT . HIS LAST CD WAS CALLED THE BIG PICTURE IT WENT GOLD.ANYWAY YALL CHECK THAT OUT.AND THERES SOME NEW CATS OUT LIKE BATHGATE,JOE BUDDENS(RASHEED WALLACE),JAE HOOD THERE HOT TOO.AM OUT.ONE.

-- LOX (hot97kid@hotmail.com), November 12, 2001.

"Never Change" is my favorite cut off of The Blueprint. My Favorite Five are Pac, Nas, Wu-Tang, Outkast, and Eminem. That D12 album is pretty tight. It ain't a classic, and the "shock" theme gets pretty tired, but it's got some funny ass lyrics and Eminem's homies are actually fairly talented. Usually when a rapper blows up and tries to help out his boys, they've usually got wack-ass skills. But D12 can flow alright, and that Bizzaro dude is a trip. Straight up that cat's crazy.

-- Maz (moto99@exciete.com), November 12, 2001.

top 5 lyrically(gotta do that cause that's what moves me), no particular order: Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Ras Kass, Eminem, Nas. G.O.A.T.: Pac, Big, L.L., Ra, KRS overall: right now, i gotta go with Jay

also, Hollywood I felt what you were saying, but you did go a little overboard. I got a little teary-eye'd myself. much respect!

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), November 12, 2001.

Top cut on 'blueprint'-- "Hola Hovito"

-- DonWas (donpaul1@hotmail.com), November 12, 2001.

AYO LOX! WHAT THE DEAL SON?!?!! YOU SAID BIG L WAS HOT.... I REALLY DO AGREE BUT JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER SERIOUS LYRICISTS...HE'S WITH GOD... AND IT REALLY HURTS SOMETIMES TO THINK OF HOW ALL THE TRUE ARTISTS LOST THIER LIVES OVER SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS WORDS!!!!! R.I.P. 2PAC B.I.G. BIG.L. AND THOSE WHO DIED ANONYMOUSLY AALIYAH, PUN, EAZY E... AND FOR THOSE WHO HAVE DAMN NEAR BEEN KILLED FOR THE SAME SH*T! SNOOP DOGG, 50 CENTS, LIL-KIM(SHOOT OUT WIT CNN),JA RULE (FIGHT WIT 50 CENTS), ETC... "sTaY aLiVe".... TO THE RAPPAZ WIT TRUE TALENT THAT ARE WASTIN' THEIR GOD GIVEN TALENT ON BULLSH*T BEEF...(JAY'Z-JADA,DMX- KURUPT,BEANIE,NAS,LLCOOLJ,WYCLEF,CANIBUS,NELLY,FOXY,)...TRY LEARNIN' A THING OR TWO FROM YOUR LOST BROTHERS I AIN'T SAYIN' GO B*TCH OR SOFT... BUT WHAT I AM SAYIN IS... THAT IF 2PAC COULD SAY ONE THING RIGHT NOW IT WOULDN'T BE "RIDE OR DIE" "WEST-SIDE" OR "BADBOY KILLA'S"... HE WOULD TELL YOU TO GET THE MUTH*FUCKIN MONEY F*CK THE FAME AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST..... "STAY ALIVE" (CUZ YOU CAN'T SPEND OR MAKE THAT MONEY IN HEAVEN DAWG, THE CROME AND METAL SH*T IS REAL AND NIGGAZ KILLED OVER THE SAME WORDS THEY MAKE MONEY OFF OF!) Damn...! ONE! feel free to respond...

-- Darius Hogan (YORKSTYLE247@YAHOO.COM), November 12, 2001.

Yo i completely agree York. These niggaz out here actin like they bold gut when them bullet's come ain't neither one o' dem cat's gonna turn in to Neo and start dodgin'. they all go runnin. In my personal opinion you've damn near posted the most intelligent response i've seen on this board if not all! My respects.... DUN!!! ONE-LUV

-- Donell Lufel (donillmatic@yahoo.com), November 12, 2001.

don't mean shit next to doug-e fresh.

-- bob snoom (bobwest@talk21.com), November 12, 2001.

Qoolout, unlike you, I am a man of my word and I ended it but you keep yapping your fucking mouth. You want me to think your an adult, yet your still acting like a child. Lesson 2: Always keep your Word....Hollywood I dont know who 50 cent is, sorry brother can't help you there...Hogan and Donell, What on Gods green earth did you two jokers say in your messages!?! "o' dem' catz', das da bess message anyone has posted?? What,What,What,What,What???...Get a dictionary fellas!!Who said Rakim is teaming up with Dre? Is that true?....HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE...MANNY GUEVARA..

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@homail.com), November 12, 2001.

My man lox, I ain't tryin to call you out, I'm just sayin we've battled before, dawg. But you squashed it, so I did, too. Ain't nothin to me sayin yo name earlier. But on the real, I know 3-6 Mafia is suspect on ANYBODY'S top 5 list, but I love their beats and their style of rap. Songs like "Chickenhead," "2Way Freak," etc. are all songs with tight beats and funny subjects. They're supposed to make yo laugh. They're lyrical crap, but they bang and entertain.In my own opinion Juicy "J" is in today's top rappers, but that's my list. I know good and well, that 3-6 Mafia is not in the top 5 in a list considering all the facts and issues, but 3-6 appeals to the South in me, so I gotta go with em.

If anybody is interested in UGK, they should get they album "Ridin Dirty" which is a Southern classic. #2 (One Day) has Ron Isley so it's an instant hit. #3-#6 are tight, too. #10 is a hot one, too. The other tracks are just good, but the aforementioned are bangin. Also, UGK did a lot of hits wih No Limit. Get "Slangin," "Break Em Off Somethin," and "Playas from the South." Plus get "Stick Em up" with UGK and Ludacris.

If anybody is interested in Three 6 Mafia, they should get "The End" which is personally my favorite album. "Gotcha Shakin," "Late Nite Tip," and "Cash Flow" are hot. There are other good tracks, but those are the standout tracks. I love all their albums, but if you like The End, you'll like the album after that: "Chapter 2.

My favorite cut on "The Blueprint" changes. First it was The Takeover, then it was Hola Hovito. Next was Renegade, and now it's Jigga the Nigga. But overall, I'd say Hola Hovito because that's the best beat on the song.

Holla.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 12, 2001.

freedom williams is the best mc that ever lived

-- bob snoom (bobwest@talk21.com), November 12, 2001.

Another thing: I heard 50 Cent on this song where he raps about robbin numerous artists with the Madd Rapper. He aiight. He sounds like a cross between Beanie and Jay-Z. On any note, he's a man that only gets half a bar from Jigga.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 12, 2001.

I'd like to submit my list of top 13 hip hop albums of all time. I'd like to know what y'all think. Don't beat me down too bad. Y'all are some opinonated and passionate folks!

13) Raekwon: Only Built for Cuban Linx-It's a must for any hip-hop fanatic like me. Totally innovative lyrics and beats. 12) 2Pac: All Me against the World - I love 'Pac. There's probably better albums than this, but I love 'Pac. 11) Beastie Boys: Paul’s Boutique – Many people have missed this album. A music masterpiece—at least a sample masterpiece. These three white boys improved upon their debut album by putting together strong lyrics with a collage of beats. One of the most intriguing albums of all time of any genre. 10) Public Enemy:It Takes A Nation of Millions to Hold us Back – Brought political rap to the world, while maintaining the soul of Hip Hop. Flavor Flav was a great compliment to Chuck D. Terminator X’s brought loud in your face beats that backed up lyrics which made for a lethal combination of riotous music 9) Wu-Tang Clan: Enter the Wu-Tang(36 Chambers) – Dirty, grungy beats and lyrics from the East. Introduced Method Man and RZA. Concentrates on various different styles of the many members of Wu- Tang. Considered by many, the finest exhibition of lyrics and flow of all time. Definitely brought their own style to the industry. 8) Dr. Dre: 2001 – Long time to wait for a second album! Dre, once again, brings the highest quality of production and popularizes his new simplified version of his old style. He brings in more live instruments, mainly guitars, bass and keys. 7) Notorious B.I.G.: Ready to Die – Great lyrics. The listener could always picture what Biggy was talking about. Creative use of metaphors and similes. Beats lacked a little, but the feel of the album combined with the flow made up for it. 6) Eminem: Marshal Mathers LP – This is where pop rap is at the millennium. Slim Shady’s style is controversial and aggressive. Another artist that give the listener visuals. His delivery is obscure but not hard to get used to. Another feather in Dre’s beenie. Without Dre, Eminem wouldn’t even be a morsel on the map of the rap industry. 5) EPMD: Strictly Business – One of the first to put an emphasis on witty lyrics. Instrumental in developing the east coast street style. 4) 2 Pac: All Eyez on Me - Yeah, Gangsta rap was around for a while by the time this album dropped, but this 'Pac's best? . 3) A Tribe Called Quest: The Low End Theory – Jazzy laid back album with Q-tip working the boards. Offered a popular and respectable alternative to the gangster trend that was. Positive and self help lyrics helped define the difference between Hip Hop and Rap. More musical and less typical was this product. 2) Outkast: Southernplayalisticadillacmusik – These two brought the South to par. Great sounding album. Very free and musical sounding, topped with fast flows and conventional lyrics. After hearing this, it’s not hard to wonder how these guys have had staying power, and have been considered the best rap duo ever. 1) Nas: Illmatic – Lyrics, lyrics, lyrics. Tells stories of growing up and surviving with in-depth emotional words. Tough to beat if you want to hear great, classic style east coast lyrics.

-- P-Dub (pwatson@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Number 1 Karl, KISS MY GOD DAMN ASS! I been with the rap game since I was old enuff to get the moneys to by shit on vinyl and tape, so FUCK YOU! Number 2, I'm just using Pac/Biggie as an example. I could give you many more, but your fake ass wouldn't have heard of them. And number 3, in the words of my man Jay Hova, "he who does not feel me is not real to me, therefore he doesn't exist, so poof! vamoose son of a bitch!"

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 13, 2001.

i just love the fact you go to the university of gloucester!!!

-- gareth (gareth@norfolkwindmills.com), November 13, 2001.

All rappers brag but gayz does it so much, that faggot better make some friends quick because the whole fuckin QB dont like his ass. anyway unlike most of these new rappers biggie tried to have fun with his shit and hillis what was the name of that song where he supposedly disses faith? i dont know about that 50 cents guy but one of my friends told me that sticky fingers made a song dissing tupacs mom and shit, i dunno if its true and i doubt it. i also heard one of cashmoneys new artist dissed QB on that song with lil wayne, mack 10, baby, and the other dude. could anyone tell me who the fuck is on tommy boy records? cause on song number 3 on the violater cd nore disses it. oh and manny dont call anyone a monkey that shit is racist.

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Hey Manny, I ended dogg. Yous the one being childish. Yeah, I said peeps in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, but I only said that cause you said I gotta lot to learn. That's what you think? Whatever, just keep it to your self, pay me no mind. Ok, you got the last word, you said I keep running my mouth. Can we drop this now? And you can save the lessons too. And I said that about Rakim and Dre. Cuz from EPMD said he heard that they were (Dre and Ra) trying to work out something. I don't really like Ra, but that is what I heard. Oh yeah, the reason why I say "song Cry" is my fave is because I can relate to it. That last verse... we probably all can. LOL. I give it to Jigga right there, he's spittin' the truth. That's your fault, how many times you forgiven me?/How was I to know that you was plain sick of me?/I know the way I was livin was whack/But you don't get a igga back like that/I'm a man with pride, you don't do s--- like that/You don't just pick up and leave and leave me sick like that/You don't throw away what we had, just like that/I was just fu--- them girls, I was gon' get right back. See, that man needs to bring it this way ALL the time.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

chubby checker and the fat boys - doing the twist peeps don't diss that shit jigga

-- bob snoom (bobwest@talk21.com), November 13, 2001.

Hey Big J. That wasn't Hillis, I said that about BIG. I can respect that he never came back after Pac called him out, but you gotta apply that attitude to everybody. He didn't and that was a punk move. (Just like Jay) The song is called "Get Money." Charlie Baltimore is in it and she plays Faith; she's looking just like Faith in it. Plus B.I.G says some things about her in the Flow, like "Tattoo on titty sayin' B.I.G." Only Faith has that tat as far as I know. And Tommy Boy is the label that Naughty by Nature was on back in the day. I don't know who else was on there.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

Jay is tha hotest like he said" holding it down six summers damn" Second is jada.Nas should have never came out tha mouth wit that b.s. Stillmatic.Jay straight carried tha man. If I was him i'll climb in a hole. boyyeeee

-- youngthug (nastynigga@yahoo.com), November 13, 2001.

lets go off subject a little bit,I want your opinion on this one? Who do you think is the best producer,between these people.If I forgot anyone include them in you vote.

Timberland Dr.Dre Suge Night Manny Fresh Swizz Beats Jermaine Dupri

These are just examples you don't have to chose these particular people, but you can.Also say why they are the best to you.We all know that having a hard beat is essential to having a hard song.

Holla Back, everyone answer this one! Hollywood

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 13, 2001.

Timberland Dr.Dre Suge Night Manny Fresh Swizz Beats Jermaine Dupri

Ok, Jermaine Dupri acts too much like p diddy(always dancing in his artist videos) i dont like manny fresh because all his beats sound the same and cashmoney sucks, and like i said before FUCK SUGE KNIGHT, dr dre is ALRIGHT, id have to say its a tie between Timbaland and Swizz beatz.

haha and id like to hear gayz free style lol

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 13, 2001.

As to the discussion on the best producer, Timbo, hands down. P.Diddydaddydumbass can't talk shit, JD can't say anything but "O" and "Uh-Huh", and as for the rest. NO. And back to the Jay-Z/Nas beef. I heard a couple of tracks off Stillmatic and they are hot. BUT there are a couple of hot joints on Nastradamus, that don't make it a good album. I hope it will be so Nas can get off of Hovas ass. And after Benie cracked a bottle over Jada's head at a recent party, I got another good reason to tell Karl to kiss my ass! And it's the University of Gloucester-fuckin-shire!

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 14, 2001.

hahah where the fuck did you hear that shit? cause i can tell its not true

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

I heard that shit from my cousin who works for the Source's offices in London. There you go, 1-zip.

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 14, 2001.

I'm not trying to start anything, but why would the Source have any office over in London? They sell a lot of rap over there? I doubt if there is any truth to Beans hitting my man with a bottle. It may be true but that's how rumors get started. If I see it in Vibe or the Source, maybe it will hold a little more weight with me, but they print the false stuff too. I gotta say Puff is one of the best. Hear me out. I liked his first CD, but not too much after that, but anyway, he makes people hot. It's one thing to make B.I.G hot because he already has a tight flow; so I guess that would be kinda easy, but Mase, Black Rob, that 1st LOX CD. These are not the best rappers, but he made all of these people known. And then you gotta look at how he has signed R&B, rap, pop and even some rock. What other label can say they did all that? Not many. Plus he introduced us to some of the greats i.e B.I.G, Jodiec, Mary J. He ain't the best beat maker, or flower, but when it comes to the biz side of it, I say he's one of the best.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

i hear you, but one thing, London aint shit compared to the Cotswolds

-- gareth (gareth@norfolkwindmills.com), November 14, 2001.

You're right Qoolout. There is no London Source office. That dumb bloke is full of shit.

-- Steve Berman (SBerman@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

"My poetry's deep/I never fell/nas's raps should be locked in a cell/it aint hard to tell" excerpt form "it aint hard to tell" Illmatic. Life ills/

-- Joe P (j_dolo@nvctc.com), November 14, 2001.

"My poetry's deep/I never fell/nas's raps should be locked in a cell/it aint hard to tell" from "it aint hard to tell" Illmatic, and "Life ills,poison my body/i used to say "fuck mic skills/i never prayed to God i prayed to Gotti" D'evils reasonable doubt.I can go one and one and type their lyrics from the top of my head all day, but these two excerpts are the ones that stick to my mind the most They're both ill in their own right. It goes to show that as far as lyrical brillance, they are on top. Any way, im going to my top ten greatest mc's of all time(D.O.A)in no particular order: Jay-Z, Rakim, KRS-One, Nas, Redman,L.L Cool J (yes i said LL Cool J), 2-Pac, Biggie, Scarface, and either DMX or eminem. if Big L was still alive he could have squeezed into my list too, cuz he would have been on Rocafella pourin out hits outshining Memphis Geek and Beani Siegel. I mean no disrespect

-- Joe P (j_dolo@nvctc.com), November 14, 2001.

ALLRIGHT BEST PRODUCER,DJ PREMIER-SOME HOT ASS BEATS,THE ALCHEMIST(HE DID THE BEAT FOR "WE GONNA MAKE IT")AND I KNOW YALL FEELIN THAT SONG DONT FRONT,AND THE NEPTUNES-ALL OF A SUDDEN EVERYBODY WANTS TO GET ON THE NEPTUNES DICK FROM BRITNEY SPEARS TO JAY-Z,DOES ANY OF YALL KNOW THEIR FIRST BEAT THAT MASE SONG "WHY YOU OVER THEIR LOOKING AT ME".BUT THE RAPPER THAT REALLY BROUGHT THEM OUT WAS NOREAGA- "SUPERTHUG","OH NO","GRIMEY".ANYWAY QOOLOUT DO YOU LIKE JADAKISS BECAUSE IT SEEMS EVERYBODY FROM PHILLY AINT LIKING HIM ANYMORE CUZ OF BEANIE SIGELS BITCH ASS.BUT I HEARD THAT STORY ABOUT THE BOTTLE ON JADAKISS HEAD IT WAS BY ONE OF BEANIES MEN.AM OUT.ONE!

-- LOX (hot97kid@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

BIG L ON ROCAFELLA I DIDNT KNOW THAT.BUT I KNOW ROCAFELLA SIGNED SHAHEED THE POSTER BOY(FREESTYLE FRIDAY CHAMPION)HES HOT TOO CHECK OUT HIS SINGLE "JURRASIC HARLEM",CAMRON,AND THEY TRYED WITH M.O.P. BUT THEY FAILED.AND RUMORS ARE THAT THERE AFTER CORMEGA.AM OUT.ONE.

-- LOX (hot97kid@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

LOX, you can't tell? Yeah, of course I like JADA. He's one of the best right now if you ask me. I'm not from Philly, but I don't know if they are hatin' on him right now or not. Like I said before, he killed Beans in that little diss battle. But yeah I like him...it seems like you and I are the only two that reconize this man's skill. Holla

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

until nas's album drops jadakiss IS the best right now. and i didnt see one shot of gayz in Big L's last video.. oh well. man all the neptunes beats sound the same im tellin you, rayj's first video "wait a minute" was by neptunes and he has another video out i dont know the name but the beats are almost identical. and with 300million dollars i could make fuckin Gary Coleman the next good rap star or even a damn pop singer lol. yeah every time i hear a damn fake internet story its always "my friend told me" or "my cousin says" damn bullshit. i think there should be a newyork complamation album (minus gayz) that would be sweat i could picture one of the songs having nas,jada, and mobb deep on it.

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

"Salute Me", "The General"

So you call yourself god mc J-Hova/drunk the glass of blasphemy and forgot to pray over/your games over/crossed the warpath of a brave soldier/you're a makeover/my protege trying to "take over"/I was the shepard that led you/but you bit the hand that fed you/YOU MAD CAUSE SINCE I MET YOU I NEVER DID RESPECT YOU/and as hard as it seems you know I fathered your dreams/you's a groupie always begging to be a part of my team/another case of a boy and his teacher/I was the first to poison your speakers/so kill all that noise you preaching/I understand/all your plans to underhand/aired threats of you pulling my card next summer jam/let me make this clear hova/YOU HAD MY LEFT OVAS/she told me your little problem of the night when you slept over/but that's another subject homey/nigga you phohy/I'm coming to collect the debt from the years you owe me/so what you capitalized.....only cause I allowed you/I'm taking aim at your dome/and reclaiming my throne....

How you planned on facing/the half man half amazing/Don't need a fam, Nas is a one man invasion/claim you hot, but you flopped with Roc la Familia/cause real recognize real and your not familiar/call yourself gangsta, but you were begging for pardon/that night in Carbon/when the terror squad flipped on your squadron/Tried to front on their checks/till Pun put the gun to your chest/You said yourself god, "NAS IS ONE OF THE BEST"/Don't need to search for some dirt to expose you/I leave it to my flow to dispose you/when I oppose you/This is it I'm callin' ya/come out and play like "warriors"/studied my blueprint then pieced together your formula/guess the knowledge I speak to deep to follow/that's why your stomach to weak to swallow/The real truth that Nas is/the greatest of all timers/**** "skeletons", I keep only weaponry in my closets.

Check out the new Source with my dun Nas on the cover. Every one go out and cop STILLMATIC on the 4th of December it will be worth your while.

-- The Best (Nchekwube@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.

A,yo this is Hollywood once again changing the subject.This time I bring info on the forum.remember a little while back I ask about 50 cent the rapper who got beef with Jay-z.Well I found some dirt about him a lightweight.And for you who didn't know much about him just as much as I did I pasted an article from this website: http://members.tripod.lycos.de/adm/popup/targeted/roadmapcat-1.shtml It's an old article from 2000 but for those that know about him aready you don't need to read any further than this line! If you want more info go to this place and click on the 50 cent picture on the right of the screen.Here is the article.

Ja Rule vs. 50-Cent

Rapper Ja Rule and members of his crew the Murderers, were allegedly involved in a stabbing incident wherein rapper Fifty Cent and two others in his clique were the victims.

According to the New York police department, three unnamed men were taken to New York's Roosevelt Hospital Thursday night (March 23) with stab wounds. The stabbing occurred at the New York recording studio, the Hit Factory. One 21-year-old victim was stabbed in the arm, a 24- year-old victim was stabbed in the stomach, and a 28-year-old victim was stabbed in the hand. The police had no names for the assailants and no arrests have been made.

click pic to read another article about that topic Ja Rule's label Def Jam had no comment regarding his alleged involvement in the stabbing.

Sources say the incident was apparently retaliation for a beef between Ja Rule and Fifty Cent that occurred at a recent concert in Atlanta. Apparently, Fifty Cent struck Ja Rule and the alleged stabbing was an act of vengeance.

Some attribute the ill will between Fifty Cent and Ja Rule to Fifty Cent's "How To Rob" single, which was released last year. In the song, Fifty Cent fantasizes about robbing many prominent rappers and R&B stars, including Ja Rule's friends and labelmates Jay-Z and DMX.

I also found out that Ja is dissing 50 Cent in his verse on Shit Gets Ugly off The Murderers album, he raps "May the law be with niggaz who shout my name in vain/ I'm a Murderer motherfucker, you nigga, loose change/ I get head in the whip probably from your bitch/ Cuz she's a hoe like yourself and it's making me sick".

Other rappers are beefing with 50 Cent too, Big Pun (Rest In Peace) said in My Turn off of Yeeeah Baby, "And to the 50 Cent rapper, very funny, get your nut off/ Cause in real life, you don't know/ I'll blow your motherfuckin head off". And in Jay-Z's song It's Hot off Life And Times Of S. Carter Vol. 3 he says, "I'm about a dollar, what the fuck is 50 Cents?".

And in Sticky Fingaz' song Jackin Beats, Sticky says, "My Sticky Fingaz turn fists across ya jaw/ Beat ya ass in real life at the source awards/ The real Fifty from Brooklyn, God bless he got outed/ You just a fake clown who front and rout about it/ I got a new deal/ For a few mill/ Shoot to kill/ You fruity like Dru Hill/ You spare change you ain't even half a man cuz/ Matter of fact you ain't even half the man ya moms was".

Keep talking and disscussing about who is your favorite producer.I just got my hands on this article and I wanted to share it with yall and see what yall thought about it.

Holla back! Hollywood

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 14, 2001.

O.K, Puffy does make shit hot, but in all fairness, do you really think he could do it with Bubba Sparxxx? NO! And I don't know why theres an office in London, but thats where my cous works. They do sell a lot of raps over there though. If you want, check out the new joint by Roots Manuva, Listen to him, he can compete with anyone the states has (well maybe not everyone!). But thats enuff about that. Heres another name for the producer discussion shit, Damon Dash. If you don't agree with that, fine. Anyway, don't they got a petting zoo in the cotswalds?

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 15, 2001.

DAMN, someones been lying to me, I feel, kinda, DAMN! I guess my cous is homeless and sleeping in a cardboard box somewhere! He's not the only place I heard the beans/jada shit from though. To be truthful wit you, i dont know if its true, but its what I heard.

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 15, 2001.

i dunno, but if beans really did hit jada wit a glass bottle, he's acknowledging dat jada has dissed him royally, and he couldnt stand the heat, so he got outta the kitchen and got the extinguisher (metaphorically speaking) and took out the fire, but dont think for one minute that jada will let that slide, and dont even think that STYLES will think that shit will slide. jada will retaliate wit words, but styles will wit guns. Nore and styles, those some wild niggas. Styles bout to blow up too. Remember who u heard it from first. One

-- joe P (j_dolo@nvctc.com), November 15, 2001.

That 50 cent rap is dope. The rappers he went after coulda shot back much more creatively.

-- Sterling Clover (sterling_clover@yahoo.com), November 15, 2001.

Who made Budda hot? Tim right? First of all, I'm not even in agreement that Budda is hot, but I like that one song I heard called Ugly. But anyway, Tim did that. Timbo does have some of the bset beats out there. I'm not even into beats like that, but I gotta give it to him right there. But I'm saying his beats made hot people hotter. Jay-Z, the Lox, and whoever else, but he doesn't make the weak rappers shine. Look at Missy, he does her beats sometimes, but that does not seem to help her as a rapper, or Magoo, or even his own solo CD. Point is, Tim's beats make the hot hotter, but he has yet to make a weak rapper hotter. Now Puff has made plently of people shine, who otherwise would have failed in my opinion. And as for Dash, who has he helped? Jay would flow with or without Dash. And Bleek and Beans and all the other ROC peeps are okay, but they are not even close to being hot.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 15, 2001.

"Sunkiss like a soda" was hot , but "I had too many beanie Macs" was hotter.But anyway, Camron is signed to the Roc. I hope that will rejuvenate his career as far as the commercial mass. Stillmatic, as far as I know from some songs i heard is hot. Memphis Bleek's flow gets worst every time. Time for J Hov to use his ghost-writing skills to work. I'm from Waterbury, CT, and theres' cats out here way better than Memphis Bleek lyrically. If only they had the exposure and luck (yes I said luck) that Memp had.I'm not hatin, because I have everything Bleek has (cars, money, house, etc) so there's no need to hate. In a matter of fact, there's alot of underground rappers way better than memp (Mad Skills, Headrush, Khrist, etc)It's all about timing and who u know in the business as well.

-- Joe-Joe (j_dolo@nvctc.com), November 15, 2001.

YO J-DOLO I COULDNT AGREE WITH YOU MORE STYLES SAYS SOME ILL ASS SHIT.AND I KNOW HES A WILD ASS NIGGA.HES ALSO FRIENDS WITH NORE.IF YALL KNOW ABOUT THEM THEY MADE A SONG WITH THE HOTTEST BEAT OUT RIGHT NOW ITS CALLED "COME THRU".IN THIS JOINT HE SAYS "I SHOOT ANYTHING I GET MY FUCKIN HANDS ON/ TO LEAVE YOU COWARD NIGGAS BLOODY LIKE A TAMPON/" THAT SHIT WAS ILL.AND HE SAYS SOMETHING IN A KNEW SWIZZ BEATZ SONG CALLED "SWIZZIN FOR BEATS" WITH SHYNE.HE SAYS "YALL REALLY AINT BEEFING/WANNA TALK TO GOD THEN MY NINE IS THE PHONE LINE TO REACH HIM/WHEN I HEARD THAT I WAS LIKE THIS NIGGA IS ILL.BUT OUTTA THE LOX FIRST IS JADA THEN STYLES THEN SHEEK.ANYWAY JA RULE GOT HIS ASS WUPPED BY 50 CENT HIS PUNK ASS IS NOW SINGING AND WRITING R&B LYRICS FOR OTHER SINGERS.HE TURNED PUNK WHEN THAT PIECE OF SHIT 3:36 CAME OUT.AND HAS ANYBODY REALIZED THAT GAY-ZS LITTLE EMPIRE IS GROWING.FIRST IT WAS HIM,BLEEK,SIGEL,AND AMIL.BUT THEY DROPPED AMILS WACK ASS.AND IN CAME FREEWAY,CRIS&NEEF,OSHINO,NOW CAMRON AND SOME OTHER NO NAME RAPPERS.NAS MIGHT BE A ONE MAN ARMY BUT HE HAS TO HAVE HIS LITTLE CLICK OF RAPPERS LIKE THE FIRM.ANYWAY WHAT HAPPENED TO MANNY AND HILLIS............TURN THE FUCKIN BEAT UP.........AM OUT.ONE.

-- LOX (hot97kid@hotmail.com), November 15, 2001.

yeah that song on the violater cd with nore and styles is sweet, chrorus is a little annoying, i also like the one with prodigy and jadakiss on it.

Gayz is the only halfway decent rapper on ROC. one more thing who the bloody fuck is nelly talkin about on that gay ass #1 song. he says somethin about someone trying to copy his style but i dont see anyone making fucking orgasim sound while they rap.

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 15, 2001.

I've been looking at this responses for about 5 min. and I wana say that I think B.I.G. is the G.O.A.T. and that Jadakiss has been the hottest in the game since the lox dropped "Money, Power, and Respect". Also the lox are the best group out there. No other group has the kind of combination the lox has. Jada has the clever punchlines, Styles P. has the deep real lyrics that makes you think, and Sheek has that crazy "I don't give F**k' attitude. Does anybody agree with me or am I all by my lonely on this?

-- The Franchise (franchise@webtv.net), November 15, 2001.

I think nas and jay-z are both very good artists. They have two different styles. I personally like jay-z more that's just because he has had more songs that i like.I think that their feud is cool (another way to make $) I just hope they keep it on the c.d's and it doesnt end in anything tragic

-- q-t 3.14 (wjones9@n.crr.com), November 15, 2001.

Whether you like it or not, what i am about to tell you is true, no rumour shit. I think though that the best way to explain this is through the words of one of my boys, understand this, he aint no rapper, but he givin it a go! So if you dont like it dont complain to me, if you do, give him a contract;

Now I got the proof/this is truth, i be tellin/while y'all haters was yellin'/Jay ring shots to yo' melon/That "you know who line"/on the joint "Takeover"/who fucked the baby mama/the one, Jay HOVA/So Nas reply wit some shit about the firm/when he gonna realise that he missed his turn/commish of the rap game/just like Howard Stern/when Esco gonna learn/HOVA the king/Blueprint/the return/So stop the promotion of the shit STILLmatic/fake thug rhymin' bout AK's, automatics/like DRE/hold on, who wrote that shit/JAY

You may not believe me but its true, HOVA has been bangin' Nas's babymama, still dont believe me, then go to http://www.hot104.com/hotwire/10501137a.html nuff said. R.I.P. Ose.

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 16, 2001.

Jigga hit Nas' baby's mama. So what? Should I give him more respect now? Who cares besides Nas, Jay and that female? I don't care if Jigga man is sexing Nas himself. And once again Jay is copying my man Pac by even bringing this info to light. Think about it.

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 16, 2001.

And another thing, who believes that he's still hitting her, while she is messing with Nas? If you believe that...Oh well. But on another aspect, your boy, or you probably, whoever wrote those lines, he has some skills. For real, I liked it, but I would suggest you flow about your self or something like that, instead of making rhymes about Jigga. Still it was pretty good. Joe-Joe, you know that ain't the only diss Jada put out, right? He got a whole song for Beans. Holla

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 16, 2001.

I aint sayin nas was still wit her cos he wasnt, i just thought it adds another little twist to the beef, all that said and done, it looks like the ROC is buildin up quite a team, i still like Amil tho R.I.P Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 16, 2001.

You do realize that Amil.....really sucks....

-- Big J (Makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 16, 2001.

Yo! i hate to bring up old shit but MANNY MANNY MANNY.... youza immature punk ass faggot, and i hate to have to post such a thing but, i gotcha muthafuckin dictionary right here bitch! I ain't appreciate you dissin my dawg hogan like that you busta as punk. he was sayin that beef IN rap gets people killed which is true to an extent... but if you disagree be mature and say so but don't come out the mouth with those bullshit disses in your posts.... Punk muthafucka! LESSON 1) KEEP YOUR LESSONS TO YOUR GODDAMN SELF! pussy!

-- Donell Lufel (donillmatic@yahoo.com), November 16, 2001.

Yeah i read that shit he put up there too! it november 12th... that shit hogan wrote was tight and then MANNY just dissed him for no reason... that shit was immature! NA NA NA NA NA Manny got dissed out! looll lololo l o oolol ol ol ol ol ! Good Post donillmatic! !!!!! haha haa h ha hah aaoh oi ho ohohoho holo llo o lo lolololo!!!!!......

-- Kareem Joleson (2minican@yahoo.com), November 16, 2001.

Yes I do, I do realise that Amil really sucks, BUT, please hear me out now, she got a unique voice and a nice ass. When shes on a joint you know it aint gonna have a lot of lyrical flair or even ability (unless Jay is on it) but it is gonna be different. HA! as I write this im thinkin to myself, MAN, IM TALKIN SHIT! So fuck it. come to think of it, she is wack. Anyway, dont stop with the producer shit, i like it. But no.1 still gotta be Timbo.

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 17, 2001.

By the way y'all, I heard a live tape of Jay-Z last night, and for all of y'all who said he cant freestyle, I bet you havent even heard him kick it before. No.2 producer: Swizz Beats. R.I.P Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 17, 2001.

DAMN! 3 messages in a row! I just been reading some old stuff up on this thread, the whole Manny(Anny)/Qoolout shit made me laugh man, maybe we should be talkin about you two instead of Nas and Jay. Anyway it got me thinkin about the top five rappers, past and present etc. So, in no particular order: 1) Jay-Z (theres been enough debate, so i aint got any more to say) 2) 2PAC (none of you can doubt me on this one) 3) KRS-1 4) The late great B.I.G (one word - lyricist), and finally 5) hmmm... even though i been hatin' on him cos of the Jay beef, the performance on Illmatic puts Nas in there. I'm gonna have to give P.DiddyDaddyFucker a dishonourable mention in the lyricist catagory. Not only did he rip the beat EXACTLY from Public enemy on "public enemy number one", but he ripped most of the words EXACTLY as well. And if any of y'all doubt me, listen to "Yo! Bum rush the show" that public enemy dropped in '86.

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 17, 2001.

Wassup! I'm writing from France. Here people don't even know about Jay-z,Nas or Mobb Deep.People only listen to Eminem,Snoop and Dre.Iknow much about hip-hop and I can say that for now Hova's the best and he's ripped Prodigy and Nas.But I think Nas is gonna change da game with Stillmatic.Mobb Deep was great with Infamous but now they over,even Infamy won't be as dope as the shit. In France people who're really into hip-hop aren't like you americans:people check a sound coz it's dope and not coz it's Brooklin or Queens or Long Beach or whatever. You niggaz should do the same!

-- Paul Nzayo (pn2001@caramail.com), November 17, 2001.

Hay manny where are you,have not herd from you sence the 12th of november.It seems you make enimies every time you make a messege on this board and I want to hear your opinion on my question I asked on the 13th.I'v been waiting on a reply for who is your favorite producer? I think every regular on this message board has answrerd except for you? Come on voice your opinion,I'd like to hear it!

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 17, 2001.

I've read just about all the posts on here. I say 1 of the best from blueprint is All I Need. Jay just rips it up, simple as that. And one of the best gotta be Swizz cause all of his stuff so far is tight. And to 3:16, that Anny vs. Qoolout was one of the funniest things I've saw on here. So like 3:16 said, we should talk about them. How did that start? Who do you guys think won it? Hov

-- Real Deal (darealdeal@aol.com), November 17, 2001.

What up my niggas. I read in the latest issue of XXL that Cormega is in talks with ROC-A-FELLA to join their so called "Dynasty". Well anyways, I'm pretty upset about this because, First, being that Cormega is from Queens Bridge (like Nas, Mobb Deep, etc..) and Damn near everybody in queens bridge hate the Rocafella niggas, ain't he gonna make more enimies than friends? Second, he turning his back on his hood (QB) to join the enemies camp (the Roc) just to make a few dollars. Third, Cormega is by far one of the rawest Emcees to come out in a while (Check out The Realness, or The Testament(Bootleg.) So him joing the Roc camp would be the best thing that ever happend to the dyansty. He'll provide some balance between the mediocrity of Beenie and "M-Easy" and Gay-Z. So that being said, I was wondering how yall niggas felt about Cormega joing the Roc. I personally don't like it, cause hanging around with "Jah-hova" and "M-easy" will probably make that nigga go comercial and he might change is name to "C-money" or some rocafella bullshit. I know a nigga is trying to make it, but I just hope he don't sacrifice his individuality. One

-- Bwrecks (buzz@hotmail.com), November 17, 2001.

the only reason why this beef is good for hip hop is because mabey nas will get hungry again and come with the real.cause if STILLMAIC aint got nothing like the lyrical fire of ILLMATIC nas in my book will be forver written off as the mc who robbed his real fans by tricking us with a misleading album title.CAUSE IF YOU GONNA CALL YOUR ABLUM STILLMATIC YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK WE ARE EXPECTING TO HEAR (ONLY-REAL-SHIT) . i swear if he pulls some nastradumas shit on me i'll never buy another album by that nigga. p.s fuck jay'z jahova iceberg jigga jay peco (bitin off the wu by switch his name)

-- rich (rcpiii@msn.com), November 18, 2001.

nas's illest shit list fast life song verbal intercours song life's a bitch song to my song and a whole lotta other shit ghost face new album is hot image jigga and a ghost battle

-- rich (rcpiii@msn.com), November 18, 2001.

Hello Fellas, some people had a lot to say since I have been gone, but the champ doesn't stay gone for long. So who do I address first??..Hollywood, my young hermano, to me the best producer would have to be PremierW/Gangstarr. Ofcousre there are other producers as well and I am sure you know them....Kareem Johnson? OHHHH papa you sure you want to get in to this??.You Monkey!!....RealDeal? What are you babbling about?? what's your sorry ass story??...Paul Nzayo I ahve been in France for a while, one of my favorite rapers is MC SOLAR, what do you think about him?....To everybody else my Lessons will continue, till I decide that you cheerleaders do not need any more....HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE, PATRIA o MUERTE.....Manny Guevara

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 18, 2001.

Now no disrespect to Manny, but at the time I think Qoolout won that battle, yeah you held your own Manny, but Q just kept comin and comin and comin and... well, hell. I been to France too, spent 3 weeks there, and yeah they do got a hip hop culture, Solaar is hot (at least his beats are), but i cant understand a word that boy is sayin'. Movin' on, Cormefega allready has beef wit most of QB, Nas disses him in a track i cant seem to remember, but theres a line about "as corny as corn-mega". Anyway, the ROC dont need him right now (in my opinion). What I want to know is what y'all think about ghost writing, i think theres mans out there who are gettin no credit, but that its thier own fault. If they were to get up in front of the mic and kick it themselves, they could be in the money. But imagine how many albums HOVA would have released if all the track he wrote was in his name. R.I.P. Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 19, 2001.

Whats the dilly, Playas? Im trying to get in on this. I have been reading some of the past messages, this is a funny board. The Manny- Qoolout battle was heated. I agree with you 3:16, that Qoolout kept coming but I gots to give it to Manny. I think He is on a different level than Qoolout in what he was saying.but whatever. Yo Nas is the illest, December his shit is gonna drop and nobody can stop that.Peace.One.-Steve

-- Steve (sakuiack@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.

HEY MANNY, what the fuck did i tell you about using the insult monkey? better quit that racist bull you faggot.

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.

& while we're at it, can we stop with the anti-gay insults too?

-- Sterling Clover (sterling_clover@yahoo.com), November 19, 2001.

Hey 3:16, I respect your opinion, dogg. You gotta respect a man who can admit when he's wrong, like with that Amil thing. And that Mega diss that you were speaking of is at the very top of this page; it's the last line in the verse. Steve, I respect your opinion, too. Of course I disagree, but I see what you are saying. Manny, I got nothing bad to say about you, I'm glad we squashed it, but I'm just wondering who is MC Solar. Is he underground, or what? I think somebody else on here mentioned him too. Somebody let me know. And lastly, did anyone hear DMX's new CD? I was thinking about getting it; let me know what's up if you have it. Holla

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.

hey Q i heard it sucked so i never bought it, but they could be wrong.. BTW did anyone see the new mobb deep song on bet today?

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.

Big J, why don't you read the statments that I made before about the words that I choose to use and what I mean by them when I direct it towards someone.. pick up a banana and begin your first lesson, you Ape. is that better? and your obsession with Makaveli and the Outlawz is a bit to extreme...Qoolout, MC Solaar is from France, who was real good a few years back and is still nice. Beats,Flow everything was tight, but it's kinda hard if you dont know the language, but I suggest you pick it up and give it a shot, you might like it...Steve, I hope you saw both points, not just mine. but take it easy with that Nas infatuation. HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE, PATRIA o MUERTE.....Manny Guevara

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 20, 2001.

Cormega? On the Roc? Is Jay crazy?! Why add that weak ass nigga to yo camp? Cormega and Memphis Bleek gon come out with a song called "Complete Doo Doo." And then there'll be a remix called "Total Boo Boo." C'mon, Cormega combines weak delivery, average flow, and aiight lyrics. That nigga ain't too impressive.

And then I hear more Stillmatic/"Nas will return" garbage. The nigga ain't Jesus. Nas is disappointment after disappointment. For all of you Nas fans who can't seem to recognize when a nigga has fallen off: Nastradamus (the song as well as the album).

Did someone say something positive about Amil's skills on the mic? Did I mention she would do the hook on Bleek and Mega's two songs? Amil, Cormega, and Memph Bleek need to take some notes from Robert Smith: retire.

Oh yeah, Timbaland is the hottest producer out, with Dre following his heels. But that list of producers is biased to popular/northern producers. True Swizz, Manny, Neptunes, JD, Rza, etc. got it goin on, but don't sleep on that nigga Pimp C from UGK. He been makin sweet beats for a while and I'll put his shit up to Timbo and D-R-E any day. Check out "Diamonds & Wood" or "Look At Me" or any of they shit. UGK is hot as hell. Plus, Earthtone and Organized Noise (the cats that do Outkast's beats) are nice, too. But really, Pimp C is hot as Timbaland in my book.

Manny! Bienvenido! Donde fuiste? Hasta La Victoria Siempre!!!

"And I'm out this muthafucka!" (got that from Bernie Mac)

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 20, 2001.

Sorry i've been away. Anyway I've been reading everything, and this kinda turned into a Quoo vs Manny beef (sorry if I spelled ya name wrong) Q got dat nigga though, no offense to Manny.Any how I couldn't have agree more with whoever said that Cormega shouldnt join the Roc, only cuz of da beef between QB and the ROC. I hope Cormega knows what he's doin. He better not sell out doing some "happy Annie Beats" like Jay. Im not dissin Jay cuz Jay could rap over any beat and "make it a hot song", but Cormega is the streetz and to me he's more street than anyone in the Roc. The "realness" was kinda tight, even though he waited too long to come out,but please Cormega, for the sake of your street credibility (If only you knew how much love you have in the streets in Connecticut, NY and NJ), dont do any "sell out songs" I dont care how much jigga is payin you. Do youreslf. We all know how you bitched out Nature, took his chain AND was rockin it in front of his house. And stay outta jail. And dont fall into the "rock ice rock ice rock ice"catagory. Keep it real and youll still get love from the streets. Trust me. Nas's stillmatic better be as tight as his album title. I heard songs and he's still ill, but the album I heard was an unfinished project, so we'll see when it hit da stores.....Jadakiss, one word, SKILLZ! Style :Raw and uncut.anyway i'm out. be back soon. One.

-- Joe P (j_dolo@nvctc.com), November 20, 2001.

OK, how y'all doing? Qoolout, MC Solaar is a rapper from France, he's tight, his beats are tight, and if you can get a translation of the lyrics, they're tight to. Big J, the new shit by DMX is, just OK, theres some real hot joints on it, but as y'all know, that does NOT make a good album. Joe P, you right man, Cormega don't belong in the ROC. Now I aint sayin he cant hold his own, but I dont personally think he would fit in. But thats my opinion. If y'all want to listen to a practical unknown, who has flow and who has toght as fuck beats, listen to Roots Manuva, all the way from the British block. His new shit is called "Run come save me". You could describe him as a cross between Emininem and Busta Rhymes, but I guess the best way for y'all to feel this is if I show you what he's talkin about;

Swigging that deep root juice/Now we deh 'pon it boost/Set them spirit them loose/Go 'head go slash up the noose/With conclusive proof of both the truth/The right/'cos whether we hitch hike or push bike/or travel kinda trash/manifest that/with wholesome roots rap/manifest that yeah/I do my zing way/Ain't nutten else I know/Gone up in the life/With this I-ragged born flow/Squeeze the pain from my belly and set my soul free/Travel over ocean land and sea/Faced nuff stress and difficulty/Flung back from the brink/Gwan'ing kind of stink/We don't give a frig about what them fools think/Frig your network/Our dett work will speak for itself/Proof of the trophy/And the champion belt/Come sun come rain come hailstone pelt.

If you can't understand it its cos some of it is Jamaican and some is UK slang shit, but if you need a translation, let me know. R.I.P. Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 20, 2001.

I really dont know much about Cormega, and his skills, and this message board is kinda mixed up between some think he is hard and some dont.My only statement to that is if QB don't like him espesially the bonified leader of queens bridge Nas then he has no reason to still be allined with them.But I am not sure if going to the roc is the best alternitive.I think Jay is tring to get some warriors who will stand with him in this on going battle between him and Nas.And I figure from what I read in the past thredz Cormega has a prominate street image that is an advantage to Jay dispite his talent being good or bad.It's all academic from there!Jay will be fetured on 40% of the album,a hell of a lot of T.V time,you will see him on TRL talking with Carson Daley and so forth.He really has no choice if you ask me.It is a struggle trying to put your self out to the public,and Cormega has not done that yet.Look at me for example I have not listen to him that much and I'm constantly at the store listening to rap.So more than I think people want to admit it the streets can only take you so far then you have to give in to the popularity of the suburbs to get on their awards shows.All rappers may want to stay gutter but that can only get you popularity for so long.The suburbs make the Jay-z's,and the 2pac's, and Jadakiss's. It sound a little dumb at first but think about who made them that big, when you go to an overseas country they know who they are.And for some reason this applies to the rap genre.You don't see Britney Spears in your CD collection do you! I know this has more than likely been said before but it had to be addressed about cormega.Insted of rapping about how the streets made them they need to say the streets started me and the suburbs gave me the grammy.

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 21, 2001.

Y'all should get the December issue of The Source. Theres a whole article on Nas and his beef with Jay-Z. It really explains everything good. It also talks about the 2pac feuds and the Death Row shit with Suge Knight, Snoop, Dre, 2pac and all that. But basically the Jay-Z-Nas beef wuz started by Jay-Z at that '97 Summer Jam concert. My opinion of all this is that its sorta funny but Jay-Z is the king of New York and no matter what Nas does he can't beat him. Jay-Z's awesome and the blueprint is a fuckin amazing cd!!! Oh ya, funny lil thing, Jay-Z messed around with Nas' girl hahahaha. lataz xox

-- -$>Steph<$- (kiwi922@hotmail.com), November 21, 2001.

yo i gotta question, what do u think bout 2pac and if hes coming back???? i think he is for sure...2003 baby...

-- $teph (kiwi922@hotmail.com), November 21, 2001.

To all my Constituents and Minions, Happy Thanksgiving....HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE.....MANNY GUEVARA

-- Manny Guevara (elconde4276@hotmail.com), November 22, 2001.

My God. This thread is well on its way to developing a sub-culture all to itself.

-- Dan. I. (w1nt3rmut3@hotmail.com), November 22, 2001.

Happy Thanksgiving to all! Hope you get fat just like me today! Finally,represent anybody who rooting for Detroit. They need your prayers for their first win!

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 22, 2001.

I'm gonna say happy thanksgiving to y'all even though I dont do it myself I know peeps who do. yep, that Dec edition of the Source is tight, and after shamelessly trying to promote my man Roots on this thread he got a little bit of recognition. Trust me, hes a rude boy. Anyway, now that Suge is out and tryin to rep Tha Row, we gonna have some proper shit to talk about again. That ma thinks he's going to get back up top again. hmmm...

Hey I know its pretty much done and dusted and all of that, but back on to best producer, here's a new name for y'all; Adam F. He the one who did that "Blow yo' horn" joint with Redman. R.I.P. Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 22, 2001.

Oh Yeah! before I forget this shit, theres lyric off of "The Rulers Back" on the Blueprint. It's explained somewhere in the Source, but if you dont got that here it is;

I help you out, heres what you do/You gonna need a wide lens cos thats a ver' big shoe/You got a couple of /but you dont have a /the situation is /I'ma keep it /Fuckin wit me, you gotta drop /cos if you gonna cop something you gotta cop f'real

Call me a crazy ass muthafucka, but it looks to me as though he's talkin about Beanie Sigel, DJ Clue, Memphis Bleek, Rell, and Amil, hmmm... Shit, y'all probably know this shit already, but if you didn't, there you go. And Amils been dropped aint she. R.I.P. Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 22, 2001.

FUCK! the words didn't .com out right. MUTHAFUCKERS! DAMN! OK! Here we go again, damn this fuckin' internet shit!

I help you out, heres what you do/You gonna need a wide lens cos thats a ver' big shoe/You got a couple of "Beans"/but you dont have a "Clue"/the situation is "Bleek"/I'ma keep it "Rell"/Fuckin wit me, you gotta drop "Amil"/cos if you gonna cop something you gotta cop f'real

One other thing i just found out. During the week of the WTC attacks. The Jay-Z joint copped 400,000! Damn! R.I.P. Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 22, 2001.

FUCK JAY-Z. HE'S TOO COMMERCIAL !!!!!! HE'S NO LONGER STREET. . . MOBB DEEP AND NAS WILL FUCKING SHOOT HIS BIG LIPPED ASS IF HE SET FOOT IN FUCKIN QUEENSBRIDGE. . . . JAY-Z IS IN THE ''POP'' CETEGORY. hE DOESNT EVEN TAKE HIS LYRICS FROM THE TOP LIKE NAS. . . HE FUCKIN WRITES !!!!!!!! FUCKIN FAG ! GAY-Z !!!!!!!!!!!

JAY-Z MIGHT HAVE MORE SALES BUT NAS IS LYRICALLY WAY MOE TALENTED AND ANYONE WHO REALLY KNOWS RAP CANT DENY

FUCK ALL YOU BANDWAGON RIDING FAGGOTS!!!!!!!!!!! JAY-Z IS FUCKING GAY !!!!!!!!

READ MY SHIT DROPPED ON SEPT. 25 ON THIS WEBSITE.

AND FUCK ALL YOU SHIT RAP LISTENING FAGS.

GO LISTEN TO P-DIDDY AND NELLY . . . THATS GAY-Z CATEGORY

-- STILLMATIC (aidan1023@yahoo.com), November 22, 2001.

Yo! Who the FUCK is you? You call yourself Stillmatic but you never was in the first place, FUCKER! Aint you heard the blueprint you jackass fuck! And what the fuck are you on sayin Nas would shoot Jay if he set foot in QB? Do you even think Nas still lives in QB? I seen all the Qoolout/Manny shit on this thread as i'm sure you have. That shit made mans laugh, and I got no problem in havin' them same mans laugh at you. You tryin to stick up for Esco? HUH? Tell me what hes done that stands out since Illmatic. Do not make me laugh at the too commercial shit you tryin to rip on hove. What the fuck is Nastradamus.

Motherfuckers/say that I'm foolish I only talk about jewels/Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?/See I'm influenced by the ghetto you ruined/That same dude you gave nothin, I made somethin doin.

Tell me when Jay has ever written down lyrics (apart from when he writes for other rappers) and then maybe I'll respect your point of view. Until then bitch, get yo' mind right, and stop the fuckin bitchin'.

hit ya/back split ya/Fuck fist fights and lame scuffles/Pillow case to your face/make the shell muffle/Shoot your daughter in the calf muscle/Fuck a tussle/nickel-plated/Sprinkle coke on the floor, make it drug related/Most hate it

Jay-Z gets more sales cos he the best, simple. So Fuck you. I aint got no problem bringin it, have you, FAGGOT?

R.I.P. Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 22, 2001.

Ya 3:16 knows his shit. Jay-Z's lyrics are fuckin amazing just give it a chance and stop writing him off as gay and pop and shit just cuz of a couple of songs. The Blueprints a classic and u all know that even u die-hard fans of that Esco trash. Well no not necessarily trash he ain't all that bad but he can't compare 2 jigga. And to all you muh'fuckers who're sayin that Jay-Z ain't a battle rapper...ure contradicting ureselves. Cuz then ure goin and sayin how great his song Takeover is (which it fuckin is!) andtheres no way Nas can beat him at that and there ya go...hes battlin and hes good at it rite? Hell ya! And on The Ruler's Back, which is a wicked song, i'd noticed that stuff he said about Beanie, Bleek, Amil etc....whats he mean by it all tho other than the Amil part I don't get it...??? Holla.

-- -Steph- (kiwi922@hotmail.com), November 22, 2001.

OK CHECK OUT THESE NAS LYRICS AND RECOGNIZE THAT GAY-Z SHOULD STICK TO GREESY DICKS SMACK DAB BETWEEN THOSE ASS LIPS INSTEAD OF MIC HOLDIN

a yo i gunz from italy/smoke trees considerably/midstate and green it seems where all my niggas be/the ghetto misery/shootouts in liquor stores/a perpendicular angular clout war/police searchin up my lex over,who's petro?/my tech blows straight off the roof i test your respect yo/noone respect me they got me handcuffed, rough life/i just be up nights /breethin with scuffed nikes/pourin beers for my peoples under the stairs/these years i got they name in my swears/poppin cyrstal/like it's my fist child lickin shots holiday style/rockin steal sweaters wallibes down/ 24 karats countin cabage like the arabs/ the marriage of me and the mic is just like magic/elegant performance/bubble lex full insurance/guzzlin geunis shootin catchin cases concurant/IT'S NAS SEVEN HUNDERD WISE KING SOLOMON SIZE WE ON A RISE MY AND G GHETTO WISE GUYS/falucciano franky yayo bugsy segiel/ green papers with eagels from a trade thats illegal.

NOW POST SOME SHIT THAT GAY-Z SPIT THAT IS EVEN CLOSE TO SOME REAL SHIT LIKE ALL OF THE ABOVE .BITCHES

-- RICH NICE (richiii@msn.com), November 22, 2001.

All you Jay-z luvas out there need to get real. Do you REALLY think this man can take Nas in a mic battle? C'mon! I like J and all, but what really seperates the 2 for me is substance. Nas has an abundance, even on his lesser albums, and Jay-z barely has any. Hell, The Blueprint is one of my favorite records this year, but the whole record is basically just him ridin' his own dick! Where's the depth? The only stab at makin' real sense comes on the title cut at the end of the record. Tell me, what in J's catalogue can even fuck with "I Gave You Power", "Life's a Bitch", "Black Girl Lost", "The World is Yours", the list goes on and on. To tell the truth, who'll win will more than likely be decided by production. If the production on "Stillmatic" matches or even slightly surpasses The Blueprint, then it's Game Ova for Hova. The production on The Blueprint is the best thing about it and Stillmatic will have to stand toe to toe with it to have an impact, but as far as the lyrical battle? Jay-z is fucked, no doubt in my mind and his crew ain't shit! It'll end in tears for the ROC. Peace.

-- Brenya (hatche_r@bellsouth.net), November 22, 2001.

Aiight, I read (beleive it or not) the majority of the posts on this thread. Well I admit I skipped a couple weeks but fuck it lol. So ya my posts b4 were quite a bit outta touch with whats been goin on so sorry bout that! 1st off i wanna say that the whole Manny/Anny vs. Qoolut(so sorry if i spelt it wrong!) and Hillis 3000 wuz hilarious. Manny wuz a pathetic idiot (sorry 2 say) Qoolut and Hillis 3000 were mature but funny about it all so ya, thx 4 the entertainment guyz ;) Also I know it wuz a while back but i wanna give my opinion about how people be thinkin hip-hop and rap are below everything else. I've seen a helluva lotta that shit and well thats what it is, shit. And what people be thinkin about others who listen 2 that music. i'll give it to y'all im a 16 yr old white girl who don't relate 2 much in a lotta the music i listen 2 but i love it still and especially the lyrics. A lot of it really is poetry and fuck those bastards who say rap is mindless and not poetry or wtv it wuz cuz it sure as hell can be. and yeah i love listening 2 all the stories u hear thru the music and about how different all these peoples lives (fabricated or not) are different from mine. and also all the pop fagot bf/gf shit pisses the fuck outta me and i don't wanna listen 2 that! But yeah so I'm really into hip-hop and rap and all and know about it too but then some people write me and other people like me off as posers because of it. Fuck u don't have 2 have grown up like jay-z did to listen 2 his goddamn music and i ain't trying 2 act like anything but myself. it pisses me off. but anyway enough of this shit... Oh ya and im Canadian. livin in Montreal actually (french rap...*shudder*) and i dunno if any of u have heard anything of Kardinal Offishall's. Canadian from T.O and really y'all should give him a chance. Alrite so his debut album ain't exactly 5 mics or nothin but his lyrics ain't too bad and ya know being his debut and all there isn't all that stuff most of u refer to as "commercial" on it. "Yo that kid nice/where he from tho?/T-dot (ohh)/Where the ice at? Oh I see underground MC" im sure his next album is gonna be sicker once he learns some more about the game. the guys got potential, y'all should check him out. peace.

-- Steph (kiwi922@hotmail.com), November 22, 2001.

Seriously folks. Nas...he's good lyrically. In my opinion his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. Plus, people don't bump Nas all over America, especially down heah in the South. But Nas...he's good. However...folks...seriously...none of you REALLY think Nas is fuckin with Jay-Z right now, do you? I mean, Nas had ONE good album. ONE. I've heard that Nas' lyrics are so much deeper than Jay's. Seriously, are they that much deeper? Come on...really... Nas has nothing on Jay at this point. Nothing. Nas is living (and soon to be dying) by Illmatic, and it's getting old. How many weak ass albums can that nigga come out with before his Illmatic acclaim wears off? I mean, I haven't heard BONE "Creepin On Ah Come Up" or Mobb Deep "The Infamous." I mean, you guys love Nas for ONE album that didn't even go gold, and in my opinion, ain't even in the top 10 albums of all time. Jay-Z has AT LEAST 3 albums as good as or better than Illmatic. AT LEAST! I really feel Jay when he asks, "Do you fools really listen to music?" I mean, do you? For the sake of argument, take away "Illmatic." What else has Nas done to be deserving of acclaim? What else? If I say it now, I've said it 30 times - Nastradamus erases everything good about the Illmatic. Jay-Z would never put his name on that garbage. It's probably cuz Jay has some fuckin musical sense to go along with his lyrical skills. So folks, really. I know y'all think Jay is pop. But that obviously shows me you haven't listened to his albums, cuz he has more street songs on every album than "pop" songs. And Nas has some pop songs, too. You love to call Jay-Z pop, but Nas has taken it there, too. Three words: "YOU OWE ME!" That was more pop than anything Jay has done. Ginuwine?! Why not have Sisqo in that muthafucka... But folks...really...you REALLY don't think Nas can fuck with Jay-Z right now, do you? Do you?

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 24, 2001.

If you are going by who sold the most CD's, I'm with you, Jay got Nas. If you are going by who is better known, I'm with you, Jay wins. If you all are talking about more videos, the most airplay, all of that, than Jay wins. It's no contest. But all I'm saying, and have been saying for the longest is that that does not appeal to everyone. I believe that maybe that is what most rap fans like, but not all. Some people wanna hear songs that make you think or a song that makes you say, "let me rewind that last verse and study what he said." That's what some of us like and that is what Nas has. I'm not saying Jay can't do that. He has some stuff that makes me think, but I'm saying Nas has more. And overall, Nas' last CD was a disappointment, but it still had some deep tracks. I'm not saying it was a classic, but I don't think it was str8 doo either. I guess both of them did there share of pop stuff. Both have done tracks with Mariah Carey; she is pop. I got a few of MC's CD's and I found them under the pop section. Hov just did a joint with MJ; he is also pop. Point is, both Nas and Jay can flow. Both did some pop, both did the hardcore songs, both did the radio friendly songs and both did songs with deep lyrics. However, if you lay out all of their songs, Nas does the deep lyric thing more often than Hov. I'm not saying, therefore, Nas is the best rapper, but that is what makes me like him more. And that's why I see him as the better rapper. And to Steph, I don't agree with everything that you said, but I feel you for the most part. You don't have to come up in it to appreciate it. Holla

-- Qoolout (east997@hotmail.com), November 25, 2001.

Now, see, Qoolout? I feel you. You, I can understand. You make very good points. Nas is deeper than Jay, thus making him better in your book - and your book alone. However, you do understand overall that Jay is doin more than Nas (i.e. sales, popularity, good albums, lyrics, production, collabos, etc.) So, I'm talkin to the "Illmatic was good, so Stillmatic is gonna be good" irrational fans. And the "Jay-Z is gay and pop! Nas is so street" folks who obviously only hear Jay on MTV and conveniently forget about Nas flirts with hip- pop. I'm not Jay's biggest fan, but I know when one rapper is better than another when I see it. And for RIGHT NOW, Nas isn't even close to Jay as an enterainer or as a rapper overall.

-- Hillis 3000 (adrian.j.hill@vanderbilt.edu), November 25, 2001.

What is pop! I know that N*Snyk and the backstreet boys are pop.But really that stuff I said earlier about the suburbs and what not.plays an intrical part in that.It's a sicological thing Jay say he makes song for the streets but in the back of his mind he knows Resevoir Dogs will not sell on MTV only Hard Knock Life will.Watch MTV unplugged when Jay is on their.You won't see him dig into the valut and rap some Reasnoble Doubt stuff! Now I think about it I bet he won't even pull out the Vol.1 for them fools.I have nothing aginst Jay or any other rapper but people have to reconize that you have to rap the stuff that brung you from the gutter to the suburbs.Or just like one of Jay's song title "From Marcy to Hollywood." Where I live you best belive that Vol.2 on up in the Jay-Z collection gets more heavy rotation than Reasnoble Doubt and vol.1.Nas can't live off the succsess of illmatic if you read my very first message on november 2 you will see my opinion on Nas.That's it I'm out! Thanks for reading Holla back Hollywood

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 25, 2001.

OK i was reading alot of earlier post and saw some new things that kinda piss me off

#1 some idiot on september 18th said Nas couldnt rap fast... just how many nas songs have you heard youngin

#2 manny i dont give a fuck what you posted before im tellin you not to use it now

#3 hillis i think hit em up was complete and total bullshit because tupac had no reason, i repeat, no reason what so ever to be mad at BIG that faggot suge knight probably made him make that song.

oh and did anyone see that top 50 rappers on BET? that was some bullshit as well jayz number 2? and biggie lower than that? gay ass online voters i tell yah cause there is no way. i could understand jayz being atleast number 10 i liked him up until that gay ass dynasty record and the beef with QB so i got to give him credit up until there. i think biggie should have been #1 but i dont mind tupac being number 1 cause they both had the same talent but pac talked shit which sold and biggie was laid back which sold but not as much. and of all songs of tupac they play they had to pic california love shit i would have much rather have heard i aint mad at ya.

anyway heres something from bet.com

For those wondering if the Queensbridge MC struck back at Jay-Z's scathing dis on his track "Takeover," the answer is yes. Wasting no time, Nas fires lyrical barbs back at the Jiggaman on the LP's second track, the lethal "Ether." Ironically, like Jay-Z's Blueprint, Stillmatic is mostly Nas and only features the contributions of AZ, Mary J. Blige and newcomer Amerie. Producers on Stillmatic include DJ Premier of Gang Starr, Large Professor, L.E.S., Salaam Remi and Swizz Beatz.

The track listing for the LP is as follows:

1) "Stillmatic (The Intro)" - produced by Hangmen 3 Productions

2) "Ether" - produced by Ron Brownz for Family Tree Entertainment

3) "Got Ur Self A..." - produced by Megahertz Music Group

4) "Smokin'" - produced by Precision for Precision Crafted / Davert Entertainment

5) "You're Da Man" - produced by Large Professor for Paul Sea Productions, Inc.

6) "Rewind" - produced by Large Professor for Paul Sea Productions, Inc.

7) "One Mic" - produced by Nas for Ill Will Music and Chucky Thompson for Chucklife Productions

8) "2nd Childhood" - produced by DJ Premier for Works of Mart, Inc.

9) "Destroy & Rebuild" - produced by Baby Paul for P.G. Sole Productions, Inc. and Mike Risko for Heat Holdas Productions

10) "The Flyest" - featuring AZ; produced by L.E.S. & Staff for Big Things Entertainment, Inc.

11) "Braveheart Party" - featuring Mary J. Blige; produced by Swizz Beatz The Monster for RR / Full Serface Productions, Inc.

12) "Rule" - featuring Amerie; produced by Track Masters Entertainment

13) "My Country" - produced by Lofey for Soundlofer Music Inc. / Desert Storm / Skane Management

14) "Poison" - produced by Salaam "The Chameleon" Remi for Dashiki Productions, Inc.

Bonus Track: "Every Ghetto" - produced by L.E.S. for Big Things Entertainment, Inc.

HELL YEAH SON, also mobb deeps new cd comes out on 12/11 and i cant wait for nores new cd hahahaha QBs the shit.

-- Big J (Makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 25, 2001.

I GOT QUESTIONS FOR BIG J since you listed all the tracks for stillmatic did you hear it,and if so was it street, how would you compare it to hov's shit,what are the standout song's to look for and what makes those standout songs.one last question how good does if feel to hear az and nas spit fire again. give me a one to five mic rating.

p.s. if you head stillmatic and it was wack don't reply big j. my day is goin good so far and that's all i need to fuck it up.

-- RICH NICE (richiii@msn.com), November 25, 2001.

i havent heard it, i got all that from BET.com

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 25, 2001.

Q, you see, Nas DID some pop but Jay DOES pop ever since that album with big pimpin on it but the nas's was just on nastradomas and a little bit on the cd with "you can hate me now" on it"(eventhough i thought it was a good song but puffy? -_-

Hillis, Nas is basicly a one man army because he doesnt need collabos to boost album sales (not saying jay has done this) its seems like its all about whos on your album these days, god damn i miss good ol mid 90's rap, "grab ya dicks if you love hip-hop and fuck you niggas that shot big poppa" -Ice Cube, Born Again: "If i should die before i wake".

Rap has gone downhill since then and theres not many good cds these days, the newest one i bought was violater 2.0 and born again(someone stole my last one) guess ill have to wait for mobb deeps new cd (dec11) and nas's(dec ??)

oh and i almost forgot, FUCK GAYZ

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 25, 2001.

Yo-Yo, whats the deal people!...Not to get off the subject but damn Manny not a lot of people seem to like you kid (BigJ,Qoolout,Steph and more) Where you from son? and whats that phrase that you always write when your done mean? You gonna come back at these MF's or what?....Back to the shit, Hillis I agree with you, but also every rapper goes Pop. but whats wrong with that?everybody always gotta be hard? Biggie went Pop, Tupac went Pop..NObody calling dem bitches....Holla.One. -Steve

-- Steve (sakuiack@hotmail.com), November 25, 2001.

Who was it that made a comment about collabos on records. For the benefit of them would somebody please stand up and say exactly how many there are on the Blueprint. OK there have been a lot on previous HOVA albums (notably vol.2) but that was at a time when collabos sold copies in the stores. Jay is showing he can do a record on his own. Just in case you needed further proof. And whoever said that Nas is gonna live and die by Illmatic, thats the one thing that made the most sense since the start of this thread. Every single time Nas is about to release a CD peeps are shoutin from the rooftops with shit like. "YEAH YEAH! NAS NAS! THIS IS GONNA BE HOT SHIT!", but a week after its dropped they say, "it wasn't that good, but the next one is gonna be real". Guess what? they been sayin that since Illmatic all the way back in the last century. hmmm.... "DAMN, STILLMATICS GONNA BE HOT!"

Wheres that stillmatic dude that talked shit up the page? anyone seen him? anyone? guess not. But speakin of which, where the fuck has Manny gone? Maybe theys the same person?

I noticed a lot of "too pop" chitter chatter up on here. So listen to a lyric straight out of the mouth of Nas, your beloved street rapper, keepin it real...

Nasty Nas to Esco/to Escobar/now he is Nastradamus.

...so let me break it down for y'all: Nasty Nas was hot, Esco was OK, Escobar was LAAAAAME! and as for Nastradamus, use yo' BRAAAAAIN! Thats my interpretation of it. Look at it how you want, but it came out of his own mouth on a track that was so poor I forgot what its called. By my reckoning, if he continues like this its gonna be Nastradamus to homeless. Which i'm sure y'all would like, cos he'd be back on the streets.

Manny come back, COME BACK MANNY! I enjoy readin your shit, even if I dont agree with a lot of it!

And finally, Steph, whos the dude you were talkin about. I like listening to unknown shit, or shit before its got big but I do like listening to lyrics I can understand (so what laguage does it come in). Remindin me to tell y'all to cop Roots Manuva's joint, "Run Come Save Me", in all good record stores now.

R.I.P Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 26, 2001.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA first of all nor biggie or pac went pop. when did you ever see fuckin someone corny as britney spears in one of there videos? just what the hell is your definiton of pop son? mine is forgetting where you came from or doing alot of collabos with corny ass people like so so def, or making a song just for its chorus(not counting dirty south cause thats all they do) yeah theres more. anyway, hopfully ill be getting this cd the same day it comes out and i will give my unbiased opinion even though i hate that fag gayz, ill listen to his too and ill compare.

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 26, 2001.

All y'all Nas dicklickers can chat all y'all want, but just as Jay pointed out, Nas has got the worst flow in the whole fuckin song. I just checked out the lyrics to that comercial as McDonalds Oochie Wally shit, and I can say myself that even though I thought Nas had tight flow, Hove was right, my mom could flow better than that, I could flow better than that, P.DiddyDaddyFucker could flow better than that! Man, DAMN! and who the fuck was it... Rich Nice... was it you who said try and find a tight Jay flow, well, OK...

from "Where I'm From" from "In My Lifetime, Vol. 1"

I'm from the place where the chruch is the flakiest/And niggas is praying to god so long that they Atheist/Where you can't put your vest away and say you'll wear it tomorrow/Cause the day after we'll be saying, damn I was just with him yesterday/I'm a block away from hell/not enough shots away from straight shells/An ounce away from a triple beam still using a hand-held weight scale/Your laughing, you know the place well/Where the Liqour Store's and the base well/And Government, fuck Government, niggas polotic themselves/Where we call the cops the A-Team/cause they hop out of vans and spray things/And life expectancy so low we making out wills at eight-teen

now, son, do you really want to compare, track for track, I can go on and on and on and on.

R.I.P Ose

-- 3:16 (s0106495@chelt.ac.uk), November 26, 2001.

Big J let me correct you on that.B.I.G did a cut on Michael Jackson's history album a few years ago called "This time around" and it was not a hip-hop beat either. B.I.G I am afraid to say has done pop! I am not sure about pac but he probrobly has one somewhere.

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 26, 2001.

Yeah i remember reading that but how many people out there would refuse jackson? not many even through i think he is a fuckin idiot.

-- Big J (makaveli_outlawz@hotmail.com), November 26, 2001.

Yo its true, wheres Manny been at??
3:16, the "unknown dude" i was talking bout wuz Kardinal Offishall. Hes not unknown at all in Canada lol he gets quite a bit of airplay on muchmusic. I'm surprised u havn't heard of him. But anywayz u'll understand him hes english. His album's called The Firestarter vol. 1.
Good songs: -Bakardi Slang -Ol Time Killin -Husslin' -Mic T.H.U.G.S
Check him out.

-- Steph (kiwi922@hotmail.com), November 26, 2001.

This is one of my favorite Jay-z verses tell me what you think of it. This from the Reasnoble Doubt album song title Can I live verse 3 I think.

My mind is infested, with sick thoughts that circle like a Lexus, if driven wrong it's sure to hurt you Dual level like duplexes, in unity, my crew and me commit atrocities like we got immunity You guessed it, manifest it in tangible goods Platinum Rolexed it, we don't lease we buy the whole care, as you should My confederation, dead a nation, EXPLODE on detonation, overload the mind of a said patient When it balls to steam, it comes to it we all fiends gotta do it, even righteous minds go through this True this, history school us to spend our money foolish Bond with jewellers and, watch for intruders I stepped it up another level, meditated like a buddhist Recruited lieutenants with ludicrous, dreams of gettin cream let's do this, against T-D-S So I keep one eye open like, C-B-S, ya see me stressed right? Can I live? Holla back Hollywood

-- Hollywood Jaimison (awhollywood0838@cs.com), November 26, 2001.

L.O.X.,L.O.X.,L.O.X.AM BACK.WHAT UP YALL.I WANNA GIVE A SHOUT TO MY BOYS FROM BACK IN THE DAY MY MAN QOOLOUT STRAIGHT OUTTA D.C. HILLIS 3000 REPRESENTING THE DIRTY DIRTY FOR YALL.AND WHERES MY BOY DON WAS FROM PHILLY.AND FOR ALL YALL THAT DONT KNOW ME AM LOX REPPING THE BOOGIE DOWN BRONX AND THE M.I.A.(MIAMI).ANYWAY I WANT TO ADDRESS ALL THOSE NAS HATERS PLEASE JUMP OFF JAY-ZS DICK CUZ THE BLUEPRINT DIDNT DESERVE 5 MICS THATS JUST ANOTHER WAY FOR THE SORRY ASS SOURCE TO GET ON JAYS GOOD SIDE.DONT YALL UNDERSTAND JAYZ LIKES NAS ITS SOME STRANGE INFATUATION.AND I HAVE HEARD SOME OF THE NAS ALBUM AND SO FAR ITS VERY IMPRESSING.IM NOT GONNA HATE ON JAYZ CUZ I BUMP HHIS SHIT SOMETIMES BUT HIS ASS NEEDS TO STOP THINKING HE IS BETTER THAN NAS AND THE REST OF THEM.NOW ABOUT BET`S SO CALLED 50 GREATEST MC`S WHAT THE FUCK IS JAY DOING AS NUMBER TWO THAT BULLSHIT ASS POLL.HES IN FRONT OF BIGGIE.AND HILLIS PLEASE DONT GET MAD AT ME FOR THIS I LIKE TUPAC BUT HE DID NOT DESERVE THAT #1.NELL